keldamouse
Member
rest in peace my dear lovely Leela youre in our hearts
Posts: 374
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Post by keldamouse on Apr 2, 2014 9:58:21 GMT -8
Hi Sounds fine to me. Its good in a way that they are bored and that they dont have a lot of space. The idea is that they dont have anything else to do except make friends with the gerbil next door ! When are you planning to put them together ? Sounds like you could do it anytime from now really. Dont be afraid to delay it a few days if you are unsure or to wait until there is a convenient time for you to watch them for a few hours. There is plenty of time to get to know the new one and tame her once you have them together. You might find that she is a lot bolder once she has a friend, my lone female would dash away if you even opened the cage, now she has a friend she is still pretty antisocial but doesn;t run off scared and will let my hand be in the cage no problems. About playtime outside the cage, I have to say that I handled them a little while switching them but I didn;t let them play anywhere else. I suppose I was cautious that one didn;t come back smelling too 'strange' to the other one. Once they are together they can come out to play lots. I know it seems cruel that they are stuck in a little space with nothing to do but it will pay off in the long run for them. Hope that helps W Thank you woketteuk for the encouragement. I feel like a first time mom with all my nervousness! Happy to have the support. I'd like to introduce them this Saturday, but I am going to wait one more week, just because I am cautious. Leela seemed calmer last night. I must confess, I did take Leela out of the cage for couch time. She was very calm and sweet and not frantic. She got some of her energy out running back and forth but not frantically. I must say though that she has really learned to climb the divider. I also took Fiona out after I switched sides (yea, Leela went right to Fiona's nest and settled down, no scent marking and just went right to chewing and chilling out). Fiona was super calm but cautious, you can tell she is used to being handled she even let me pick her up. Again there was no scent marking or territorial behavior. Since this was her first time out Fiona was only out for a bit on me and the back of the couch-exactly where Leela also. Fiona also went right back into her switched side and didn't scent mark and settled down to chill. Anyway, I just feel like I lucked out with their sweet personalities and calm behavior. Maybe all that research and planning has paid off also. I just feel a huge relief because of the seeming difficultness with introducing two adult females.
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Post by sparky on Apr 10, 2014 10:51:54 GMT -8
How is the split going? Have you tried them together yet?
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keldamouse
Member
rest in peace my dear lovely Leela youre in our hearts
Posts: 374
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Post by keldamouse on Apr 10, 2014 13:05:31 GMT -8
How is the split going? Have you tried them together yet? Hi Sparky-thanks I had to take some time off to get myself together. They girls are doing okay. I did a quick intro in a neutral big box. Leela was fine but Fiona (new pew white girl) was insistantly sniffing her butt and being a pill. I had to pull them apart before Fiona went into a true ball fight. Right before this Fiona tried to mount her and show Leela her big side and posturing and Leela just showed her her belly but Fiona was still agressive. We learned a few things from this. I had places to hide in the split. I removed the tubes (I did this to look like Ritzi's split) and the food bowls. I also took all but 1 inch of the bedding out. The success comes from them really noticing each other and meeting in the middle more. With the first setup March 29-April 5th the girls were just existing side by side and not really getting to know each other. Now This is the setup that I have. 1 inch of bedding, water bottles, 1-2 times daily they get wood and cardboard chews, and scattered food. They also get occasional tissue and hay. The cardboard chews and wood build up quick so I remove a handful every 4 days and then put a bit more bedding in. It has been 4 full days of this and they are definitely noticing each other. I feel like that first week was a mistake but I learned a lot. One thing I realized that taking Leela and Fiona out (all because Leela was stir crazy) was a mistake. Leela was looking to me for comfort, back scratches and interaction. I was delaying their relationship development by taking her out. In my defense she was seriously almost crying at the glass begging to get out. She was stir crazy and leaning on the glass staring at me scratching. I just had to stop and realize I am not being cruel I am doing what is best for her. I have to remember the whole reason I got her a new "sister" was because she was showing signs of depression and not being calm. Its like she didn't have another gerbil to be a look out, to check in with and to cuddle at night with and she seemed lost. I know that she will have a better life when this split is complete and Fiona and her are together. I miss having Leela (and Fiona-the one time I had her out) to play with at night but I just have to remember I doing what is best. We may do a short intro session on Saturday or we may wait another week. My husband is really really good at reading their body language, I just interpret things as cute/friendly or aggressive. There are so many nuisances to their behavior and it really is an art rather than science to determine what they are saying with their body language when you introduce them. Here is my lovey Leela-she is getting so much darker Here is my sweet Fiona. Fiona still scent marks but it has been improving. Still no aggression at the split. And they aren't freaking out when I switch sides 3-4 times a day (I make sure they sleep on the opposite side from the night before). I am in for the long haul. If it takes 6 weeks I will do it. I know that this post is super long but I am hoping my experiences can help someone else with their split cage introductions.
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Post by sparky on Apr 10, 2014 15:02:14 GMT -8
It's great to hear how they are getting on. I know how stressful it is, and having a gerbil appealing to you to be let out makes it even more stressful. You are doing great with them and hopefully Fiona will be more relaxed the next time you introduce them. What some people do when they introduce the gerbils is they put both gerbils on one side of the split rather than using a neutral space. That way it still smells like both of them and the split is still there if you need to separate them again.
Your signature photo is lovely. This is the first time I've seen it.
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Post by GerbilUK on Apr 11, 2014 2:50:58 GMT -8
Hi again
I would second that and say to simply take the divider out of the existing tank (or put them in the same side if you can't do that easily). That way they are on familiar ground that smells of both of them and they won't be fighting over new 'territory'.
Well done you on your patience. Don't forget that when you do put them together there will be scuffles for a while (maybe a few hours) as they do have to confirm dominance. This involves mounting, pushing each other over, sniffing round each others backs, bit of chasing, squeaking, tussles over who is grooming who. So don't be alarmed. Just make sure you have gloves on in case you separate them as you don't want to get bitten.
One thing I read on here is that if they have a bit of an argument or chase and then go back to eating, digging whatever, that's good. If one seems set on chasing the other persistently and the other is trying to hide in terror, that's a bad sign and they will properly fight sooner or later.
My grown up male pair still play fight, pin each other down to try to groom,, rolll around etc. then the submissive one will eventually lie down and get thoroughly groomed, with lots of squeaking noises. I don't know why they squeak but my pairs all do it, I think they are showing their submission to the other - or their pleasure! So watch out for this too and don't panic if you hear squeaks while they are grooming etc- it doesn't mean one is killing the other!
Best of luck. W
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keldamouse
Member
rest in peace my dear lovely Leela youre in our hearts
Posts: 374
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Post by keldamouse on Apr 14, 2014 9:31:44 GMT -8
thanks all for your encouragement. I am well...um...feeling like this is taking forever. in reality it has just been over 2 weeks. I tried a second intro on one side of the split yesterday. It didn't go well. Within one minute Fiona started to go into a ball fight. I grabbed her before she hurt Leela but I got bit on the glove and the bite quickly moved to my finger. It hurt super bad and I couldn't get her to let go, so I just waited. She let up once but then bit me again. It's my own fault. I once again didn't read the signs and Well I am not a patient person. Oh well I am just thankful they are both okay. I checked them both over very well. Anyway I will not try to introduce them until we see at more signs that they are ready. •one or both gerbils sleep close to the divider •there is successively less scent-marking and agitation when gerbils switch sides •they show general disinterest in the other party •They are grooming through the mesh I just can't help but feel cruel at their bare bones existence but I have to make sure they are bored enough to want to bond...right?. I put a big wood chew in each of their cages and I think I will take it out. Fiona tends to mark it once in a while. Fiona pees on it too...weird. Maybe I will also only give them one wood popcicle chew or cardboard piece each morning OR night but not both. maybe I am giving them too much to chew? I am thinking that I may be looking at a long split. After the near disaster yesterday (after one week in their barebones split switching 3 times a day) It has been 2 weeks total-first week with more bedding and one largish sleeping tube each. I told my husband that I would just let him decide when he thinks they are ready to try again. Again I just want it to be over so bad I think I subconsciously just look for the good signs but ignore the bad. I just don't know if we should do a neutral territory into or do it on one side of the split. (my divider is hot glued in place). I am leaning towards neutral. Anyway I guess I am really down. I keep telling myself to be patient but It's so hard. I keep thinking I've made a huge mistake and maybe I just can't do it. Anyone else had a super long into? Have a wrecked things? Sorry for the rambling....
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Post by GerbilUK on Apr 17, 2014 4:50:07 GMT -8
Sorry to hear it all went wrong the other day -that's really rubbish:-(
Good job you were so quick to separate them, well done. I would carry on if I were you. Can I just ask a couple of questions? Have you ever seen them grooming through the mesh? And what happens when they meet at the mesh? Do they just sniff briefly and carry on- have you ever seen any aggression or heard squeaking etc? Are they both scent marking lots?
I have done three splits (all involving babies) and have never seen them sleeping together at the mesh. I have seen them trying to groom each other though and the other signs you mention. I'm just trying to say don't worry too much about the sleeping together thing, sometimes they prefer the comfiest place overall I suppose.
Don't be downhearted! Keep on going for now I say. Luv wokette
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Post by GerbilUK on Apr 17, 2014 4:54:08 GMT -8
Just to add I would remove the large wooden chews as they can mark it. Cardboard is ok as they will destroy it anyway. I did give them a small chew as I worried about their teeth, maybe like 1x2 inches thin piece. Or maybe a small twig each every couple if days, that won't last long enough to squabble over ownership! I collect twigs out of the garden (oak and sycamore) and then dry them in the oven for a while. They love it and its nice and cheap!
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keldamouse
Member
rest in peace my dear lovely Leela youre in our hearts
Posts: 374
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Post by keldamouse on Apr 17, 2014 8:33:44 GMT -8
HI Woketteuk. thanks for all your help! It is so wonderful to get opinions and encouragement. I have gotten used to Leela's begging to get out. For the most part I ignore her. I have removed the large chews. They only get one piece of cardboard to chew in either the morning or evening about 4 or 5" square and then one Popsicle stick in either the morning or evening. I alternate and the pieces are usually gone right away. The rest of the time they are bored, but this has been good because they are noticing each other. Leela is now an excellent climber and Fiona is learning too. Also Fiona is really getting used to me picking her up 3 times a day. She sits in my hand and doesn't mind much, I give her a bit of a pet and talk to her ant then place her in the opposite side. I do the same for Leela and she isn't satisfied with this interaction but it is all I give them besides talking to them for now. Fiona still pees each time i switch them, but I know this will improve after the split is complete and I am able to tame/bond more with her. okay on to your questions; Have you ever seen them grooming through the mesh? SNIFFING MORE THAN ANYTHING, LEELA HAS LAID AGAINST THE MESH AND FIONA RUNS UP AND SNIFFS AND ACTS LIKE SHE WANTS TO GROOM BUT IS SCARED/CAUTIOUS And what happens when they meet at the mesh? THEY AREN'T AGGRESSIVE, THEY TOUCH NOSES AND SNIFF LOTS. SOMETIMES FIONA TURNS AND SHOWS HER BACK AND THEN GOES OFF TO THE OPPOSITE CORNER. LEELA NOW SEEMS UNCONCERNED ABOUT FIONA SHOWING HER BUTT/SIDE/BACK AND THIS BEHAVIOR OF FIONA HAS IMPROVED IN THIS THIRD WEEK Do they just sniff briefly and carry on- SOMETIMES JUST BRIEFLY SOMETIMES FOR A BIT LONGER BUT NO TRYING TO BITE, JUST LOTS OF SNIFFS AND WALKING DOWN THE SPLIT WHILE SNIFFING have you ever seen any aggression or heard squeaking etc? YES I HAVE SEEN AGGRESSION WITH BODY LANGUAGE ONLY. NO SQUEAKING OR COWERING. LEELA USED TO RUN FROM THE DIVIDER AND FIONA USED TO CHARGE THE DIVIDER AT TIMES. IT HAS BEEN SLOWING IMPROVING. Are they both scent marking lots? LEELA DOESN'T FIONA DOES IF SHE HAS A CARDBOARD CHEW BUT IT HAS BEEN LESSENING. YEA! sorry for the caps. it was the only way I knew to type the answers to Woketteuk's questions. anyway I have been relying on this guide to help with identifying behaviors: thegerbils.com/gerbil9behaviours.htmThanks for the Luv Wokette-Right back at you. You Rock!
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Post by sparky on Apr 17, 2014 14:40:32 GMT -8
It's great that you are bonding with Fiona. It's a shame that they didn't get on when you tried them together again.
There are different thoughts on how long a split should last. Some people say that if it hasn't worked after 2 weeks then it's not fair on the gerbils to keep them in the split for longer. Other people try for as long as it takes. I can't remember now how long we keep Sprogley and Squeaky in their split. I'm pretty sure it was 3 or 4 weeks. They showed all the right signs in the split but Squeaky would fluff up and went for Sprogley every time we introduced them. In the end we kept them in a permanent split in a 3 ft tank with deep bedding and toys. They still lived happy lives and talked to each other through the barrier lots of times during the day.
Hopefully Fiona will accept Leela but even if she doesn't they can still be happy in a permanent split.
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keldamouse
Member
rest in peace my dear lovely Leela youre in our hearts
Posts: 374
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Post by keldamouse on Apr 17, 2014 17:59:06 GMT -8
It's great that you are bonding with Fiona. It's a shame that they didn't get on when you tried them together again. There are different thoughts on how long a split should last. Some people say that if it hasn't worked after 2 weeks then it's not fair on the gerbils to keep them in the split for longer. Other people try for as long as it takes. I can't remember now how long we keep Sprogley and Squeaky in their split. I'm pretty sure it was 3 or 4 weeks. They showed all the right signs in the split but Squeaky would fluff up and went for Sprogley every time we introduced them. In the end we kept them in a permanent split in a 3 ft tank with deep bedding and toys. They still lived happy lives and talked to each other through the barrier lots of times during the day. Hopefully Fiona will accept Leela but even if she doesn't they can still be happy in a permanent split. Thanks sparky! Yeah my husband and I have discussed options if it doesn't work. I just want the best for them. I am super excited though, we both witnessed awesome signs tonite of acceptance. Fiona grooming Leela's back and sleeping in each others nest spots with no adjustments. Also no scent marking. I truly believe their boredom has paid off. If this continues we will try another intro next Saturday. Wish us continued success. :-D
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Post by GerbilUK on Apr 18, 2014 3:55:52 GMT -8
Hi again, thanks for your kind words! Glad I could help a little. I am not an expert by any means, but I have learned so much from this forum!
Sounds great that they are grooming a bit and sleeping in each others nests. Sounds like you are on the right track. Defo give it another week and then try again.
One interesting think I read on here is that when gerbils scrabble at the tank or chew the bars, it doesn't mean that they are trying/ want to escape. That's what it looks like to us, but not necessarily in their little brains! They don't realise they have come to the 'edge' of their little world, to them it's just a particularly tough bit of tunnel to dig or a really thick root in the way. They don't even realise that they are not making any progress if you see what I mean. So don't feel too bad about them being bored/not having much space.
What is important is that they have a companion, even if it does end up in a permanent split, which is what you are trying to achieve.
Good luck. Let us know if good signs continue! Wokette
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Post by sparky on Apr 18, 2014 14:17:04 GMT -8
It's great that you saw them grooming. Sounds like they are really making progress
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keldamouse
Member
rest in peace my dear lovely Leela youre in our hearts
Posts: 374
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Post by keldamouse on Apr 25, 2014 21:46:32 GMT -8
So a quick update. Still switching my girls 3 times a day. Bare bones cages, cardboard square or popcicle sicks for chewing, but not much. Haven't tried an intro again and it will be two weeks since the last try tomorrow. No signs of acceptance/readiness. Still interested in sniffing at wire, but Fiona mostly is still scent marking a bit. Also there is some side showing after wire sniffing.
I've let the chewed cardboard build up quite a bit in the last week and a half and this evening I saw Fiona's eye was red around it. I changed 3/4 of the bedding on both sides. The other eye is okay. I am thinking that her eye was irritated from the cardboard dust. In am hoping its not stress from the environment. I will be watching her closely.
I've read that one split took 55 days so I want to keep trying but I don't know if it will work. Leela wants grooming but poor Fiona I don't think gets it.
I'm discouraged.
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Post by qtoffer on Apr 26, 2014 21:32:16 GMT -8
I don't see why you can't take the gerbils out for playtime - just don't have them both out at the same time.
Playtime is another opportunity to get them both used to each others' scent. Rub your hands in gerbil A's bedding before picking up gerbil B. Also, use the same toys and play area so they are exposed to each others' scent.
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