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Post by baxter79 on Jun 14, 2014 23:16:06 GMT -8
Hi all, I'd really appreciate some advice, I've heard and read so many conflicting things and I don't really know what the best thing to do is. We had two female gerbils, bought from a pet store, approximately 1 year old. They were very well bonded but one of them died suddenly a couple of weeks ago. No signs of illness and no signs of fighting. She was just dead one morning. We debated whether to try to introduce another gerbil, I'd read a fair bit about the split cage method and that two females are difficult to introduce to each other. I'd almost decided not to do it but I felt so sorry for our now lonely gerbil and called the local pet rescue centre to ask of they had any single female gerbils. They had a female who had been found in a compost bin, fully grown but they didn't know how old. I discussed the split method with them and they gave me very conflicting advice. They seemed to think that an introduction in neutral ground was best, and that if that didn't work it was unlikely that they would ever bond. Also, one person there said, keep the tank basic with just bedding, scattered food and water and another person said give them plenty to do to stop them focusing on each other. Confusing! The said that if the introduction went badly I could return the rescue gerbil. They sold me a used glass tank 90cm x 30cm ( not quite sure about the height 30 - 40cm) and gave me a tonne of cardboard and a few little houses. Their advice contradicted what I'd read so just in case I made preparations to split the tank if necessary. I attempted the introduction as they suggested. Cleaned the tank thoroughly, put in two wooden houses so they could get away from each other and a couple of cardboard tubes. They sniffed each other a bit, wondered around and about and then went for each other, lots of loud squeaking, I managed to get my gloved hand between them and the rescue girl was hanging from my glove by its teeth so she meant business. Once she let go, she hid in one of the houses and wouldn't come out for about 90 minutes. Our gerbil seemed very curious and kept going over to sniff her but everytime she went near the other would squeak loudly and thump her feet. Eventually she came out but there was a lot of fast chasing (our gerbil chasing the rescue one), loud squeaking and foot thumping (from the rescue gerbil). So I have split the cage. They tried to get each other through the split a couple of times and since then (overnight) have mostly avoided each other. I've swapped them over a couple of times. I also added some more bedding, a wooden tunnel and a glass jar. The rescue gerbil is very nervous and not tame at all. I'm not feeling very hopeful that this is going to work. Sorry this is so long but these are my questions: Should I remove the houses, glass jar and tunnel and just have bedding? Any thing else that I can do? Is it likely that this is going to work or should I cut my losses and return the rescue gerbil? Thanks in advance!
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keldamouse
Member
rest in peace my dear lovely Leela youre in our hearts
Posts: 374
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Post by keldamouse on Jun 16, 2014 10:53:22 GMT -8
hi Baxter, For me neutral territory didn't work. Also I had their cage bare bones with only small cardboard and some small sticks to chew in addition to just a little bit of bedding 2" and a water bottle and scattered food. It took about 7 weeks but it was really worth all the effort, worrying and changing the sides they are on 3 times a day without fail. They hated each other on the first 2 attempts to put them together and the neutral territory was a disaster. My thoughts are if you are working so diligently to mix their scents by split caging and switching sides why would you then introduce them on neutral territory. I know all about conflicting advice and you just have to kind of wing it and do what you feel is working. Don't be discouraged and just keep asking for advice and encouragement because that's what helped me the most. Feel free to just keep asking questions and if they are bored don't stress too much about it because when the bonding has happened they will be so happy and even if it doesn't you don't need to feel guilty about keeping them together for 7 weeks in a split because just know it was for all the right reasons and that you tried your best. Here is the link: gerbilforum.proboards.com/thread/28915/split-cage-first
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Post by baxter79 on Jun 16, 2014 14:07:54 GMT -8
Hi Keldamouse, thanks so much for your advice and for the link. Your thread was massively helpful and encouraging! I have removed all the extra bits and now only have an inch of bedding and a couple of bits of cardboard a day for each, oh and a water bottle each. They are sleeping in opposite ends of the tank (it's a 20 gallon by the way). The rescue gerbil (berry) will use the other's nest (Lizzie) but Lizzie rebuilds her nest elsewhere when switched. No real aggression but a bit of scrabbling at the split. Only 2 days in so we'll wait and see what happens, I'll continue to change sides 3x day and keep the tank as bare as possible. They do seem very bored. I hope it works!
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keldamouse
Member
rest in peace my dear lovely Leela youre in our hearts
Posts: 374
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Post by keldamouse on Jun 16, 2014 14:48:08 GMT -8
HI Baxter, I am so glad it helped. Your girls sound just like mine in the early weeks of their split. Fiona would build a nest all cozy and then Leela would destroy it. Its a hard adjustment to go from lots to nothing in their split. It almost broke my heart when I would sit next to the tank and Leela would lean her arms against the glass trying to climb and stare at me...like hey mom get me outta here! I usually made sure they got a bit of hay once a week in addition to their food and maybe a bit of tissue to tear up. I also ended up pulling out handfuls of bedding (mostly chewed cardboard at that point) every 4 days to keep the bedding levels low. Once or twice I added a handful of new bedding but that was after I mixed it with the old from both tanks. Also I ended up introducing them in a 10 gallon tank with 3" of very used bedding and one water bottle. The 20 gallon high was too high to really get to them quick in case of a ball fight. Anyway I am rambling... I am really rooting for you and Berry and Lizzie and I am here to help!
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Post by crittercrazy on Jun 16, 2014 17:29:38 GMT -8
Hi, Sounds like my experience too! The first time I went to introduce a gerbil, I had read about the split-cage method and was planning to do it, but the pet store workers gave me the same neutral territory thing. For my first couple of introductions, that's what I did, and fortunately it did work for me. (mostly) However, now I would definitely say go with the split cage! When I split caged my girls Pixel and Minty and my old girl Peanut, it took less then a week and they were best of friends. Sounds like you're doing good. And just to repeat what Keldamouse already said, try not to worry too much about them being bored! It is sad but its for their own good and in the end they'll be happier. Good luck!! Keep us posted on how things are going and if you have any more questions ask away!!!
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Post by baxter79 on Jun 17, 2014 12:28:44 GMT -8
Thank you both for your input and encouragement. I think I needed it today as otherwise I might have given up and taken Berry back. They are both thoroughly depressed. Both sitting in their nests looking out but not doing much except when I swap them over, Lizzie is now using the same nest as Berry rather than building a new one, but Berry runs around scent marking and peeing on everything. She even pees on the cardboard tubes I put in before she chews them. When I put my hand in she chases it around the tank and then climbs on it. I thought maybe I'd misjudged her and she actually is quite tame, but then realised that she only does it so she can pee on my hand, she even sides up to it and lifts her leg so she can wee on it. Has anyone else experienced this? She thumps her feet like crazy whenever I go in the room, I am afraid that maybe she is completely 'wild' and won't become tame or get used to Lizzie. Lizzie has a very sore nose there's only shredded paper, some tissue and a bit of carefresh in there. So I think it's from chewing the mesh at the split. I'm feeling very guilty and cruel for putting them through this. I'd appreciate your advice on Berry's behaviour, is this common and is it likely that she will adjust? I will stick with it for as long as it takes if I know it'll work but if it's unlikely to work I'd rather give Lizzie her nice environment back and not keep looking at that sad face and sore nose.
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keldamouse
Member
rest in peace my dear lovely Leela youre in our hearts
Posts: 374
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Post by keldamouse on Jun 18, 2014 8:16:57 GMT -8
Baxter my Fiona was very nervous and nipped at me a couple times, not bite though, and peed every single time I picked her up during the split. It was maybe only the last week of switching that she didn't pee or me every since time. Also she would mark like crazy on any cardboard or popcicle sticks I gave her and even pee on it like a dog marking territory. It really worred me but it all worked out and this nervous behavior got better.
It did take a bit for them to actually sleep in each others nests (always on opposite sides) without completely destroying it first. The feet thumping is because they are unhappy or scared. And the nose is probably exactly because of what you said. Try giving her a bigger piece of wood to chew and maybe a bit more bedding or a few pieces of tissue, she can then work on building and chewing a nest. I don't know luckily my girls when they were bored would chew on their aspen bedding or rechew older bits of cardboard pieces. Leela actually became a really good climber and would constantly climb to the top or the mesh and try her hardest to get over. Luckily it never worked since I had the mesh in a T like shape.
Sorry that it is hard on you. The sad face is really hard, I actually just had to stop watching them for a while because I almost started crying feeling cruel so I feel for you.
Hopefullly someone else whose done splits can give you advice too on the sore nose issue.
hang in there and try not to feel too bad, I know its so hard:)
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Post by baxter79 on Jun 18, 2014 10:59:03 GMT -8
Ah thank you, that has given me a bit more hope. Berry is slightly less frantic when changing sides today and Lizzie's nose looked better. Small steps, hopefully we'll see some progress soon!
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Post by baxter79 on Jun 24, 2014 12:37:02 GMT -8
Just thought I'd give a little update. It's been 10 days since I started the split. I decided to split the tank further as I read some old posts saying that a 10 gallon tank split would be more effective and a 20 gallon was too big, so poor girls are in a tiny space. They look so bored and they are sleeping a lot or just sitting in their nests not doing much. It has been really hard to watch but I've continued swapping them over 3x day, giving a bit of cardboard and a small wooden chew only to give them something to do. They are sleeping in each other's nests (which are not near the divide) and have been doing so for over a week. There is no foot thumping anymore, some scent marking but nowhere near as much as before, and the are rubbing noses through the mesh, possibly grooming (it looks like they are biting gently, so I'm guessing they are grooming each other with their teeth) but straight after they touch noses they run in opposite directions and turn their backs to each other, is this an aggressive gesture?? I am feeling encouraged and tempted to try an introduction. Obviously I don't want to rush it if they are not ready but I don't want to keep them in the split longer than necessary either, they look so fed up! What are your thoughts?
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Post by baxter79 on Jun 25, 2014 0:45:36 GMT -8
So I removed the split for a few minutes yesterday. I don't think it went well. I was ready with gloves and a big plastic scoop just in case, they ran straight to each other and immediately positioned themselves sideways in a sort of yin and yang pose. Then there was what I can only describe as a face-off, they stayed completely still, just staring at each other, for only a few seconds before I put the scoop between them as I got too scared that they were going to kill each other. They tried to run around the scoop to get at each other so I quickly put the split back in I felt very discouraged afterwards, they immediately became aggressive and after 10 days together in the split I thought I'd see some progress, but they seem to hate each other even more than on the first day I will keep trying of course. Just hope things improve soon.
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Post by hannah4049 on Jun 25, 2014 8:14:24 GMT -8
If you continue doing the split for a while, and they still don't take to each other, you could do a permanent split. You would probably need a bigger tank then a ten gallon though, maybe your 20 gallon? To be honest I don't know much about this, but it was mentioned to me by another member (rhianna) in another thread. Maybe another member can give you more information about a permanent split, like when to try it etc. But I think it's more of a last resort type thing. And I know this possibility has probably already been mentioned to you, but I thought I'd post this just in case it hasn't. Anyway, good luck with the introduction!
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Post by crittercrazy on Jun 25, 2014 8:37:19 GMT -8
Try not to be too discouraged! The sideways thing you described is pretty normal, not really an aggressive behavior. (My gerbils do it and they're all sisters and have lived together their entire lives) The "face-off" could be a problem. . . don't know for sure. So it's possible that some more time would do the trick (some splits just take a long time@) or worst case scenario, you can do a permanent split as suggested or separate cages etc. Good luck!!
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Post by baxter79 on Jun 27, 2014 12:28:29 GMT -8
Thanks for the advice! I removed the split again yesterday and put a few tubes and a couple of houses in to see if a little distraction would help. For the first few minutes they were quite happy just running around, then there was a bit of chasing and then some sort of wrestling... Berry knocked Lizzie onto her back and held her down for a few seconds, Lizzie freed herself and then there was a bit of chasing. It seems that now Berry is feeling more comfortable here she wants to be the boss and Lizzie is not keen on the idea. For 20 minutes Berry chase Lizzie and tried to mount her and Lizzie got very annoyed, they eventually went into a ball and I separated them before anyone got hurt, but I don't think they wanted to kill each other like the first day, it was more that they were trying to establish who the dominant one was. I guess I can only give it time and see what happens. I will wait a few days before trying them together again to give Lizzie a chance to forget how pissed she got!
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keldamouse
Member
rest in peace my dear lovely Leela youre in our hearts
Posts: 374
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Post by keldamouse on Jun 27, 2014 12:37:48 GMT -8
so my advice would be to give them at least another week and then try it again. Mine took 4 times removing the split for them to work and not go into a ball fight and then it took almost 4 hours for them to decide to sleep together. Hang in there and keep being encouraged. Free free to post or private message me with questions and I will be happy to help in whatever way I can.
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Post by baxter79 on Jul 7, 2014 11:20:18 GMT -8
Hello, I haven't had a chance to update until now but I'm so happy to say our girls are paired up It took 3 weeks in the split, but on saturday evening they spent 3 hours together, a fair bit of wrestling and very enthusiastic grooming but no fighting. I split them up overnight, just in case, then removed the split again on saturday morning. The have been together since then, the have moved their nest a couple of times as they have more space and a bit more bedding (only old bedding with the mixed scent that I kept) and they seem very happy now. All curled up together, lots of gentle grooming and it is so lovely makes it feel like it was worth letting them be miserable in that cramped, bare space for a couple of weeks. Thank you all for the great advice and tips!
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