loxy
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Post by loxy on Sept 12, 2014 4:36:32 GMT -8
Anyone have any experience of Nutmeg Creams? Basically the aa counterpart to a Honey Cream. I'm trying to research them online and am finding it difficult to come up with confirmed pics or details about their defining characteristics. The best page I found was here: storybookspocketpets.webs.com/shadesofcolor.htmAre they quite rare? Or is it that they are just assumed to be Honey Creams being so alike? Is there a way to definitively tell the difference through appearance? Anyone with experience or further info on this please contribute.
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Post by MoonstoneGerbils on Sept 12, 2014 12:22:30 GMT -8
A nutmeg cream, is a marked nutmeg that looks like a Honey Cream, that is known to be a self, aa.
In general they are still Honey Creams as honey cream describes a particular look and not a particular genotype.
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Post by betty on Sept 12, 2014 12:53:05 GMT -8
Oooh no - I hadn't though any of my Honey Creams were Nutmegs as they all had pale ears?
And of course, I get a load of spotted/pied Nutmegs but no 'just' spotted/pied Honeys so never assumed otherwise. Maybe I will try my own aa nutmegs crosses to see if I can repeat it?
However, I am unsure as to getting Creams without spotting - I thought that was the very definition of the Creams? And all my Creams have been from my spotting line.
Hmm?
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loxy
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Post by loxy on Sept 13, 2014 0:31:49 GMT -8
That was my understanding of it, Moonstone. I suppose the only way you know it's definitely a self is through breeding. How would you describe the genetics of a "Honey Cream" that could potentially be a self? For example, if it came from a light honey mother and a spotted nutmeg father?
*a Cc[hm] ee P*
Would be my guess.
Betty, is the pale ears characteristic of Honeys?
On producing confirmed Nutmeg Creams, I guess a Lt CP Nutmeg and and a Sp Nutmeg would produce the most Nutmeg Creams? I'm still fairly new to gerbil genetics.
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Post by betty on Sept 13, 2014 2:00:58 GMT -8
No, the dark ears is a characteristic of Nutmegs in my experience.
I had a hardly-spotted CP Agouti who had all range of spots and pieds as well as several Dark-Eyed (DE) and Red-Eyed (RE) Honey Creams - in basic terms they were just Spotted DEH and Spotted REH - but I read that the combination of ee and Dominant Spot (DS) created this appearance.
She never had any unspotted or DS DEH or REH pups at all - they were only ever Creams.
I homed most of them and only two went on to breeding (we called them either RE or DE Noodles) and my Red-Eyed Noodles went on to produce both A* and aa pups with a Burmese - so she was defo a REH. I don't have the details of the other Cream to hand - but will find out...
I also now have several Nutmeg and Saffron Spots and Collared from the same line (but have had no Creams). I have also not been breeding the A* lines as was focusing on certain self colours for the line so have had no Honeys either.
I currently have 2 female Spotted Nutmegs who I hope to breed from in the future so maybe I will find them a DS Nutmeg male and see if I can recreate the Cream appearance in that line? Hopefully they keep their dark ears as that would look great on the white, but maybe the creaming dilutes that strong colouring which is why most people miss them as Nutmegs?
And finally - I am not sure if the single CP gene helps the creaming effect or not - I will have to look at your link again - but all mine definitely carried one c(chm).
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Post by betty on Sept 13, 2014 2:05:40 GMT -8
Here are some shots of them...
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loxy
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Post by loxy on Sept 13, 2014 2:43:20 GMT -8
Wow that second one is very light, lovely stripe of colour down the back. I think you need the c[hm] gene as a recessive to complete the cream effect, I think particularly in nutmeg you could easily distinguish a pied nutmeg from nutmeg cream. I'm currently breeding Bee who is supposedly a Honey Cream to my Black male Sherlock. In her first litter we appear to only have blacks and siamese based on the pigments but I could be wrong, we'll see when they get furred (I might be mistaking the siamese for CP agouti) Could be a fluke I guess! Will know more in a couple of weeks If she does turn out to be aa not Aa then I'll try to take some detailed shots of her once litter 2 is all grown up and report back here
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Post by betty on Sept 13, 2014 7:39:43 GMT -8
Do you know Sherlock's genes? That could make guessing the babies easier...
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loxy
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Post by loxy on Sept 14, 2014 1:24:57 GMT -8
I'm afraid Sherlock is a mystery though I figured out that as his brother is an Argente Cream that he could carry the c(h) gene which explains the lighter pups (I can't believe my luck really, Siamese is my favourite colour)
Bee is Aa Cc[hm] DD ee G* P* or at least so I thought. That should result in Agouti, Black, CP Agouti and Siamese. But I only got Black and Siamese which started the whole research into this.
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Post by betty on Sept 14, 2014 2:05:48 GMT -8
Well, if you wanted to base it on 1 litter, you could assume that Sherlock was blanket aa Cc(ch) EE GG PP, blocking out all other recessives which would still leave you with 4 potential pup colours you mentioned: Agouti and LCP Agouti on one side, and Black and Siamese on the other.
I have had several litters where the first litter was not typical of all the genes in the pot and I would imagine you will get at least one Agouti-side pup in the second if she is Aa. I suppose you will just have wait and see. How many pups did they have this time out of interest?
It is possible if you don't know his genetics that Sherlock could also carry an e in there to go with hers to produce Honeys, Nutmegs and Saffrons.
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loxy
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Post by loxy on Sept 15, 2014 4:10:33 GMT -8
They had seven pups this time round though I'm starting to think that we may have an agouti or other recessive at work now. We have two light pups which I thought to be siamese, one was clearly spotted from an early age, the other I thought was solid. Over the last day the spotted pup has gotten darker, to a light grey colour as expected but the "solid" pup has stayed light and is showing a little forehead spot. Dark eyes, no darkening of the muzzle, a little darker on the ears. I'm thinking maybe an LCP agouti or something else.
So Bee might breed true to her Aa labelling after all. I'm still fascinated by the idea of nutmeg creams though. I was amazed by the pics in that link, they look just like Bee.
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Post by betty on Sept 15, 2014 8:14:42 GMT -8
Well LCP Agouti would be one of the four main ones without any recessives - but will be interesting as they age. Here is a litter of mine with all sorts in it.... Top Pup: Siamese - Top Bum: CP Grey Agouti - Far Left: PEW - Far Right: CP Agouti and Bottom Pup: LCP Agouti. No spotting in this lot.... However, here is one of my spotted CP Agoutis at 14 days.
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loxy
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Post by loxy on Sept 18, 2014 0:12:33 GMT -8
Looks like we got our agouti after all. Little Snowflake is definitely coming out as a spotted LCP agouti. Maybe our next litter will have a few more in the mix
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