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Post by vexorg on Jul 26, 2015 22:48:15 GMT -8
I've seen quite a lot of thread on declans recently. We've only had one split of two out of four boys in the last 10 years. We've had over half a dozen groups over that time and none have ever split or fallen out.
In our experience, it seems to be very rare. What triggers it, and how do they know who's an enemy now?
It can't be smell. In our case either of the two that were fighting would sleep beside the non-fighting two without any problem.
Is it a dominance thing? in our case the most pushy one and the most timid one were the ones that split. The timid one is physical bigger than the other, but would be pushed out of the way for food and treats. Why pick a fight with him, the other three would steal the treats off each other, more reason to fight there.
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Post by t1gg3er on Jul 27, 2015 2:15:04 GMT -8
I don't know anything about what may cause it other than obvious things like not enough space or a younger gerbil trying to overthrow an older one etc... We removed a young boy from his dad & brother as he clearly didn't 'fit' with them. He was very scared & staying as far away as possible. There was no actual fight and other than him being very quiet/timid compared to the other 2 there was no obvious reason for them separating.
The high number of declans posted about on here could be for a couple of reasons - (i) people joining a forum for advice often only do it when there's a problem (in our case it was the panic caused by the unexpected arrival of pups) or (ii) long-standing, experienced members have probably had in the past or currently have a larger number of gerbils so are more likely to have to deal with a declan at some point.
After deciding to keep all our pups (8 in total) we now have a lot of gerbils & I dread the day we have to deal with a proper declan. If it does ever happen I just hope I pick up on the signs so I can remove someone before it gets bloody. I'd be devastated if someone got hurt (or worse) because I hadn't acted in time.
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Post by johanne on Jul 27, 2015 2:15:54 GMT -8
There appear to be quite many reasons and the process is certainly not well understood. In the wild, if all offspring were to stay with their families indefinitely, overcrowding would occur and food and other resources would run out in their territory. So there are aggressive periods where certain ones are picked to move on and establish their own families elsewhere. Those selected to leave are gradually pressured over time. They'll be chased periodically or fightingn will start to break out but the rest of the time they will all be at peace and sleep together. When aggression starts to happen we have to take action at some point as our gerbils can't come and go from their tanks as they wish. The intensity of the periodic attacks will increase until someone is injured or killed. I find sometimes it's possible to change their environment (perhaps to a bigger tank) and the aggression will end. As for why it starts, it can be for any of the reasons it might happen in the wild. Perhaps it's deemed the area is too crowded for the number of gerbils, maybe at some point there doesn't seem to be as much food as all want, or a water bottle might be jammed and it's deemed there isn't enough water available. Or someone's hormone level is deemed unacceptable; the amount of sex hormones varies per gerbil. It's not physical size but hormone concentration that appears to make the difference. The more dominant males have been found to have relatively larger testes than more docile but sometimes larger males. And we all know gerbil personalities are quite variable. Some are more agreeable than others and less likely to declan. I'd have to find the studies again where these things are written up. My memory isn't always 100% lol.
Another thing that appears to happen at times is when people change all of the bedding at once. This usually doesn't present a problem, yet on rare occasions the gerbils get confused about each others scents and attack one another due to mistaken identity. Or that's how it appears. If that happens they can usually be reintroduced by the split tank method. Not sure if that is the correct explanation but that's how it appears.
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Post by vexorg on Jul 27, 2015 8:05:25 GMT -8
Seems like a cruel way nature has to split a family, fight to the near death seems a bit extreme
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Post by Shooting Star on Jul 27, 2015 9:22:56 GMT -8
Also keep in mind that (to the best of my knowledge) wild gerbils do not live in same-sex groups. It's a breeding pair and their most recent litters. If I'm remembering right, ALL pups are driven off eventually. They sick around to help raise siblings for varying amounts of time, but ultimately leave to find their own mates. Wild gerbil groups are not static, they change with every litter! And the group likely wouldn't last more than a year, since one or both of the parents would run into predators.
For pet gerbils, we've tried to meet their needs as best we can. They need one or more companions, but keeping a breeding pair together for life really isn't feasible, particularly since that life is much longer than it would be in the wild. Neutering gerbils is difficult and expensive. That leaves us with same-sex groups. Usually these do well. Sometimes they don't.
Part of that is due to artificial selection: not breeding gerbils that have declanned in the past, or proven difficult to introduce. This is happening to some degree in rodent mills, just because a gerbil prone to fighting would be more likely to be killed while fighting. But there's not enough selective pressure to really move temperaments away from their natural instincts and towards something that works better in a captive environment.
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Post by johanne on Jul 28, 2015 1:45:18 GMT -8
Seems like a cruel way nature has to split a family, fight to the near death seems a bit extreme I'm not aware of any evidence that fights to near death occur in the wild. When that happens in captivity it's our fault for not giving gerbils that need to get away the option to get away. Typically when there is aggression it starts with a lot of posturing, chasing, and even ball fights with no teeth involved. They try to get the message across without hurting each other. It's when we prevent one from leaving for safety that things escalate to injury or death. |
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Post by betty on Jul 28, 2015 2:58:42 GMT -8
I'd have to find the studies again where these things are written up. I would love to read these studies, declanning is an interesting area. I can usually spot the signs now early on and split fast, so most of my recent 'declans' are bloodless separations. I have only seen 2 declans that I think I know the trigger for (ie the fighting started within 24 hours of something major that I did). All my other declans seem to happen slowly over time like described above - a gradual ousting. Mostly mothers and daughters (as the daughters get to 6-9 months) or unrelated females (from 6 months onwards), or older/younger female splits I had performed myself (within a year window). I haven't yet had related males declan (although they do hump and box a lot) and my many mixed-sex but infertile pairs seem to be quite stable. Case 1: Mother, older sibling and younger sibling together until youngest was 6 months. I took the youngest sibling out for breeding leaving the mother and older sibling in the same used tank. The following evening - the older sibling had badly attacked the mother. Case 2: 2 unrelated 6 month old boys together. I made the stupid mistake of putting some unwashed tunnels from a female tank into their newly cleaned out tank (as I clean them all at the same time on the same day and got my piles confused). Within an hour they were chasing and I realised my mistake and took out the tunnels, but they never settled. A small amount of blood was drawn overnight, so I called it quits and split them. In a way they are like any species in captivity - there are limits put on their 'happy' space. Each animal has their limits - even if they are community loving. Would love to know more about them... |
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Post by vexorg on Jul 28, 2015 3:05:20 GMT -8
Maybe so. When we tried re-introducing our two declan boys after a day later of swapping the back and forth in the cages, they went for each other. It wasn't a chase, instant ball and biting. My daughter soon realised why I told her to use heavy gloves as she ended up with a really bad bite separating them.
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Post by johanne on Jul 30, 2015 1:35:30 GMT -8
Maybe so. When we tried re-introducing our two declan boys after a day later of swapping the back and forth in the cages, they went for each other. It wasn't a chase, instant ball and biting. My daughter soon realised why I told her to use heavy gloves as she ended up with a really bad bite separating them. In cases of dealing with strangers or established enemies or when declans have already occurred... Yeah, it can go straight to vicious attack. Act fast and with appropriate precautions  |
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Post by johanne on Jul 30, 2015 1:48:14 GMT -8
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