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Post by GerbilUK on Nov 15, 2015 14:11:59 GMT -8
Hello, I am confused about what happens with dominance when a young pup is introduced to an adult gerbil. At first the adult is always in charge I assume...
Does this order ever swap round as the pup matures? I have done many intros but usually they seem to remain in the same order, with the older one staying dominant.
I ask because I have just had two males declan, nasty neck/front injuries on both. Candy was introduced to Hector as a young pup when Hectors partner died. Hector was himself introduced as a young pup to the old partner and remained submissive to the old partner until he died. Hence I am surprised that he has fought with Candy. Candy is now about 7 months old and is a big powerful gerbil. I suppose I expected that if Candy wanted to be boss when he grew up, Hector would just let him (as he seemed submissive before).
From watching their behaviour for a short while before I separated them it was clear that Candy was now in charge and he wanted rid of Hector.
Should I be thinking of getting a pup for either of them or is it likely to fail in six months time also? Or does that simply depend on pup personality/mix at the time?
I can probably put them in a permanent split with other gerbils entirely, so they wouldn't be totally alone btw.
Thank you,
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Post by betty on Nov 24, 2015 0:37:08 GMT -8
I think you can only generalize so far with gerbils - as there are always exceptions.
Generally, you can pair up a younger to older male and have no issues at all, however, sometimes as the younger one matures (around 6 months to a year) and the older one becomes weaker (in the gerbils eyes) or sick/old, the younger one thinks everything would run more smoothly if he was the boss. Sometimes the older one is like 'yeah alright, I can't be bothered with all the fuss' and gives in; other times the older is is like' hang on a minute - what on earth are you trying here sonny?' and starts a bit of a hoo-haa to stay on top.
As for separating them and re-pairing them with pups, I would always say yes, it was worth a try again. No gerbil should be alone unless THEY decide that for themselves through a couple of failed introductions (anything from 2 weeks to 4 months). I say failed introductions as when an existing pair of gerbils fight after being together for a long time - they aren't being unsociable - they are infact stuck in the society rules for being sociable and so that is why they are forced to fight (as one wants the other one gone but they can't physically go anywhere as stuck in the same tank). And the dynamics change for every pairing...
I have only ever had one gerbil who truely wasn't cut out for having gerbil friends (after 3 failed splits), all other grumpy and single gerbils I have had have been paired up with a friend for 6 months or more to lifelong friends - and think of all the cuddles they could have had in that time?
I would certainly look for another friend for Candy as he is so young, however, like you said the dominance thing should mean that he stays the boss, but it won't be like that in every case - as you have found out yourself.
And why not look for an older partner for Hector so they don't have to worry about such things? See if you have a breeder or other experienced keeper close by and match up some oldies in a split. I have great success matching up oldies and a majority of the time they are male female pairings with females who have NEVER been bred from and are over the age of 2 (extremely low chance of falling pregnant - although they might still have sex ALL the time...).
Let us know your plans?
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Post by GerbilUK on Nov 26, 2015 9:03:29 GMT -8
Thanks for your reply Betty.
I must confess I have no confidence at all in adult intros... I have a crazy male who I have tried to introduce to a couple of different males and I have been astounded by the aggression...getting worse and worse over a week ....I decided from then on I would only do adult-pup intros which I have had no trouble with. The crazy male is now in a permanent split with a female by the way, he is totally fine with her.
You have given me some ideas though. I think Hector at least would accept another adult as he is very submissive. I have been combing the classifieds to see if I can find an older male or female for him, I will check the pet shop at the weekend too and see if there are any loners or ones in the adoption section.
I also have the problem that I am a bit maxed out for space... I already have 8 of my own in five tanks....I am going to think carefully about what to do. Some of my gerbils are quite old now so being realistic I can expect some space to come free reasonably soon. I would ideally like to reduce my gerbils to just two pairs over the years so I'm cautious about buying even more! I don't have a single gerbil of my own I can try with hector (at the moment) as they are either paired already or fertile female. So I would have to get another!
Thanks again for replying.
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Post by betty on Nov 26, 2015 9:14:33 GMT -8
I had the same trouble, but I knew I had an overload of females to deal with as the numbers start to thin - and so I invested in 3 young males from a local breeder of the loveliest gerbils.
That way, as and when I lost a female from a pair, I could match them up with a young male and basically split every one couples as the old grannies start to pass. I find it SO easy to split a male and female couple than any other.
So far I have used up all three males already (with splits taking no more than a week) but I know that when the remaining ones go, I can use the young males again and again, until noone is left alone, and then potentially the young males can be split to each other as they age - as males are far easier (in my opinion) to split together that females.
It was a gamble to take on more, but I knew that the last thing I wanted was loads of single females all over the place that I couldn't split together. So far I am very happy with how it has worked out.
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Post by GerbilUK on Nov 26, 2015 11:38:12 GMT -8
That's a good idea actually. I aim to eventually just have maybe four males in two pairs.... I find the idea of introducing adult females rather intimidating although I have done adult-girl pups several times really easily.
It's a matter of keeping all gerbils as happy as possible while nature takes its course though... If I have to get another gerbil to do that then so be it, I'll make room somehow! I have to say I would be bricking it if I did introduce an old girl to a boy in case of the patter of tiny paws though... have you ever had pups occur from doing this? I know the female mustn't have ever been bred, 2 doesn't seem that old though!!!
Thanks again
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Post by betty on Nov 26, 2015 13:14:14 GMT -8
I have never had a female over 1 get pregnant with a male yet, and I have several breeder friends who have said the same.
Even if they have regular sex, which most of them do, there have been no litters. And these pairings have been with every age of male and from known fertile males too.
I would never say never though, but the cumulative number of pairings between us must be at a 0 out of at least 100 pairs, or more.
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Post by GerbilUK on Nov 27, 2015 14:22:41 GMT -8
Wow so I could be ok with any (unbred) female over a year old in fact to go with my boys?
That's going to take a bit of a leap of faith ! That may widen my options a little with regard to rescue gerbils.
Thanks
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Post by betty on Nov 28, 2015 2:50:18 GMT -8
Well yes, but like I said it isn't 100% as every gerbil is different - and NEVER trust anyone else's females at first glance.
People estimate gerbil ages an awful lot in rescues and households - so taking a female from someone is much riskier than taking a male to your known-age female. Sometimes they generalise to the nearest year based on gerbils typical 2-4 year life span. If they don't know the age it sort of goes like this: if it looks young they say 'under 6 months', if it looks adult and in good shape they usually say 'a year' and if it looks adult and a bit haggard they say 'about 2'.
None of these 'ages' will help you for the first 9 months of owning it as an adult (as this is the length of time you would need to own the gerbil yourself to 'know' it was over a year for sure) - and there is always the chance it was bred before it was homed and the person YOU got it off didn't know or didn't tell you.
It is much safer to only buy in males for mixed splits - cos they can't get pregnant at any age! There is currently a single male at the RSPCA in Brighton that could potentially be matched up with someone's single older female...
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Post by GerbilUK on Nov 28, 2015 3:10:18 GMT -8
Yeah sure I understand.... I am currently looking after a friends single female while she is in hospital....she is 'supposed' to be about 9 months currently but who knows? She's been through several owners, she could have had a litter...too much of a risk to take!
I do have a female pair who are - well - paired, and a very young female on her own who I will pair with a pup when I can. The pair are 2 years and 18 months, they could live for years yet...or not.....who knows? I have had them all since pups so I am certain of ages with all three.
Thanks again, your help is much appreciated. Food for thought!
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