3 male pups split with 1 lone male? (Please Help!)

[stormgerbils]

Hello. Today I went to the petstore and bought 5-8 month young gerbil pups to accompany my lone 3 yr gerbil, who has lived with his brother all his life until his passing away a couple of days ago. I am currently trying to train them using a split cage, but I recently checked a lot of websites and they all say never to introduce a gerbil to a trio.
I am really worried that one or more of them will die, but I can't let my lone buddy stay alone, he and his brother had always been an outstanding duo; they did almost everything together, it was rare to see them apart. Now that he's gone, my lone gerbil barely does anything and it breaks my heart because I can't stand to see him like this and frankly I don't know how long he will last without other gerbils to keep him happy.

Please help.

-stormgerbils

[GerbilUK]

Firstly, are the pups 5-8 weeks old or 5-8 months old? If they are very young pups, I honestly don't know if a trio is doable, I have heard of two pups but not three. If they are older than 8 weeks, I would say you have no chance with a trio. What's to stop you just introducing one young male to your older one and keeping the other two as a pair or even returning them if that's possible, I know it's hard when you have them to even contemplate returning them. Have you room/accommodation for two pairs? You will need to do a split cage for safety even with your male and one pup, even if its only for a few hours (which my last intro was). Hth

[stormgerbils]

I'm pretty sure they are 5-8 months old. I probably can have two of them in each tank, I would need to buy a bigger one though. I feel bad separating the trio though - will it affect them in any way? And also, what do you mean by impossible - will they fight or declan as they get older?

[blanknote]

As they are already 5-8 months old, they are already an established group, they have figured out who is the dominant one, etc, and I have read that you should never introduce a lone gerbil to an established group due to this reason. I think the established group isn't too keen on accepting a new gerbil to their group as it would mess the hierarchy in the current group. (I haven't done intros myself, but have done a lot of reading on it, and this is what I have come to understand about it.)

If you do separate one from your trio, I think the best thing would be to separate one that is submissive, as then there would be dominant and submissive left. And if Creameo is dominant one, he isn't likely to accept another dominant gerbil with him.

[stormgerbils]

Alright. I tried introducing Creameo to the trio for about 10 minutes today, nothing seemed to happen. They chased eachother around the tank a couple of times, no boxing or fighting, they seemed to be nibbling at eachother's faces, but then two of them (one being Creameo) settled down in the hideaway they have, and the younger pup started to sort of chew and sniff around his back and neck fur? No blood was drawn and Creameo didn't squeak, I'm not sure if they were grooming? I still might split the trio up and put one with Creameo, leaving the other two; but I'm not sure if that would affect the trio of gerbils, do you think it would? Is the possible grooming a good sign? I really couldn't tell since the hideaway is rather enclosed and dark. Thanks for the response.

[t1gg3er]

Putting Creameo with a group of 3 adults (which they are at that age) would be incredibly risky. As Blanknote says, they're an established clan & wouldn't take kindly to an imposter. It would completely upset the balance and could have nasty consequences for Creameo & possibly even trigger a declan within existing group.

If you're going to separate the trio you also need to think about age difference - what will you do with the boys who's left on his own when Creameo goes? It's unlikely his brothers would accept him back so you'd either have to keep him alone or look for another new cage mate for him.

If you do decide to split the trio & put one with Creameo then follow Blanknote's advice & pick a submissive one to try & avoid upsetting the balance between the other two.

At that age you'll need to follow a proper split tank process as per Woketteuk's advice Don't put any houses or anything in either side. Just substrate, toilet paper for nesting & a water bottle each side. Food can be put directly onto the substrate - no food bowls for them to scent mark. Also be aware there's a possibility the split won't work. I had 2 boys who point blank refused to go together even after a month in a split but they're both now happily living with different boys who were only 8 weeks old when we introduced them.

There are lots of threads on here on introductions with really good advice & people with loads of experience of doing introductions so there's always help on hand if you need it.

[stormgerbils]

So at this point the safest thing would be to separate the trio?

I tried putting the trio with Creameo for a while today and nothing happened, no fights. They all seemed to get along. Not well enough to live together, but one of the gerbils in the trio, the oldest of the three, started sort of ruffling/chewing/pawing at Creameo's fur, particularly around his neck and back, while on top of him? Creameo didn't respond, he just sat there, no squeaking.

I don't know if this is a good sign or if it's grooming, but if I were to separate the trio, do you think it would be a good idea to splitcage Creameo with the gerbil that he seemed to tolerate more than the other two?

I'm not sure if Creameo was the dominant gerbil between him and Midnight, but how would I be able to tell with the new gerbils?

Also, would separating the trio cause any negative effect on them? I'm not sure if they would get upset or just forget about the separated gerbil/gerbils and live contentedly with their new pairs.

Thanks,

-stormgerbils

[t1gg3er]

'Betty' would be a good person to help you with this - I don't have enough experience but she's really good at reading gerbil behaviour & has done lots of intros. Hopefully she'll be online & give you some advice soon.

[betty]

Thanks t1gg3er, I am glad I am able to help anyone with my advice.

As for this scenario, it does seem rather strange (and very interesting) that you are able to put all 4 together without any huge fights?

However, I have found that most gerbils in a new environment will tolerate each other for a good half hour to an hour if they aren't super aggressive - so if your introductions are for less than this time span and they are on a large surface with plenty of new things to sniff this could be something to do with it.

I would also like to ask you to confirm a few things to set the scene before I suggest anything: so, you say they are 5-8 months old but how come you don't know an exact age - is it something to with where are they from - and do you also know if they are brothers or whether they are just 3 male pups who were put together before you brought them - how long have the 3 been together do you know? Are they definitely also males - as 3 females might explain why they are so calm.

[GerbilUK]

I'm not sure how to explain how to tell which is the dominant one of the trio...it was just kind of obvious somehow. Sit down and watch them carefully for ten minutes when they are all awake. In my pairs the submissive one might come up to the dominant one and try to mount it or stand up and box... The dominant one will not have any of that and may do it back to the other. Sometimes the dominant one will then get the other lying down and give it a good grooming! After the mounting/scuffling whatever the submissive one will then kind of slink off- its obvious who has won ! It's not always the largest gerbil in charge by the way.

I have to laugh about what Betty said about checking the sex... I remember being amazed trying to introduce two adult females and they just loved each other from the start... One was actually male of course! That was my first gerbil pair and I didn't have a clue. I always check the sex myself now if I get a new gerbil, even from a breeder.

Anyway.... Would be interested to know how long you have left them together for so far, also as Betty has mentioned?

I really wouldn't worry about them missing each other if you separate the trio. I don't think gerbil brains work like that. They like a companion, but don't see other gerbils on a 'personal' level as we do our own friends. Let us know how it goes!

[stormgerbils]

I don't have exact ages because they are all around 5-8 months - not all the same age. One in particular is larger and more mature than the others. Two of them are definitely males, but I am unsure with one of them. I'm not sure if they were all brothers/sisters, I'm pretty sure they are, the petstore I bought them from mentioned something about possibly taking their mother home as well.
The longest they have been together is about half an hour, on multiple occasions, on most of those occasions there was a little bit of chasing, but minimal squeaks and no fight outbreaks. Again, after a small bit of chasing, the largest gerbil out of the trio started to groom Creameo, I think - I couldn't tell, but the younger gerbil started pawing and chewing at his back and neck fur.
Not sure if this is a good sign, but if I did split the trio would it be a good idea to split the gerbil that was grooming Creameo with him?
Thanks.

[betty]

Ok, you knowing they are all different ages between 5 and 8 months, rather than you estimating their ages at around 5 to 8 months helps a great deal. Added to the fact the pet shop offered the mum too, I would assume they were all litter mates, most likely one from an earlier litter and the others a later litter, so they would all have been together their whole lives.

However the fact that he offered you the mother too, makes me wonder what he thought you were going to do with her on her own, like he either just wanted rid of her, or one of the pups was a female and he thought they might go together? Perhaps you should start a thread in the sexing section with images of all your gerbils bottoms so we can be sure of what you have there. And why not throw in Creameos bottom too, just so we can be sure of everyone involved as this is a very interesting situation.

May I also ask why you only left them together for half an hour if they were all getting on so well? Why didn't you just keep on going and see if they all go to sleep together (which is a really good sign). We're you yourself worried that something would go wrong if they were together any longer, or didn't they give you any thing to worry about but you only had a short time to watch them and didn't want to leave them together without you watching?

And did you put the trio in Creameos tank, Creameo in their tank, or all 4 in a new tank for the introductions?

[betty]

I hope you don't think we are avoiding your main question, but because we all know how fickle gerbils introductions are, we don't want to suggest the wrong thing too early and hear that your gerbils have all fought - which does sometimes happen.

For example, putting the trio in with the older male could well work. It might last for ever, it might last a few months if the larger pup wants to be dominant or if Creameo becomes weak, or it might last a few hours with one or more of them getting really hurt or even killed.

If you take the wrong one from the trio you could upset the two you leave behind, and the one you take out might not even get on with Creameo in the long term.

And even if one of the above does goes to plan (which is of course totally possible), if we haven't sexed your odd one you could also end up with a litter you really don't want as well.

I don't mean it to all sound so negative, but your situation is quite delicate and we have had people try these things before with bad results, so I don't want to give you advice that doesn't suit your gerbils as you will have to live with the consequences. I would rather give you all the options and you make the decision yourself. Males are normally quite laid back, so at least you have that on your side.

[GerbilUK]

I agree that priority number one is to check that the uncertain one is def a male. At that age the testicles should be pretty obvious. As Betty says, take some photos from underneath and people can check for you.

Sounds like Cremeo is pretty submissive if he let another strange gerbil groom him straight away. Did he lie down flat and still with his head on the floor and let it happen for a few moments or did he try to wriggle off straight away?
Sounds like you should be able to get Cremeo together with another male, as Betty said though it might upset the other two in terms of who's in charge if you remove one of the three. As they are all adults you really need to split cage Cremeo with whichever other you choose (sorry if I'm repeating myself here!)

Also, as Cremeo is quite old, bear in mind that you will sooner or later end up with a lone gerbil when he dies, and he will not go back with his brothers at that stage after being apart.

Not sure if I've helped or hindered here!

[GerbilUK]

Sorry just realised have repeated quite a bit of what other posters have said there.

Could I just add that if you are trying them out together, please wear gloves (thick ones like leather) or have something you can get between them without putting your hand in. If they do start biting each other then you could be badly bitten otherwise(I have done this and thank goodness I had gloves on as I felt their teeth through the gloves). They can be really fierce.