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Post by pepandmax on Jul 12, 2007 15:20:28 GMT -8
Pepandmax, Its not red or anything and I wasnt going to pull it off but wait for it to fall off itself. This is why I thought you were looking to help the tail along its merry way: Do i slightly twist it and pull it off or just leave it to automatically by its self fall off? I'm sorry if I misunderstood! Doom, there is something very endearing about Dibbler. It's great to hear that he went on to live a lovely gerbil life (tale of a tail... heh heh heh...).
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Post by myconcordia on Jul 13, 2007 7:26:47 GMT -8
I still think that Neosporin is perfectly safe if used responsibly. I have never put great big gobs on my gerbils, but very small amounts. After 10-15 minutes of letting the neosporin be in the affected area (I'm monitoring them, by the way), I put in a bowl of sand and they roll and clean it off. I have used neosporin on gerbils for over 6 years and nothing bad has come of it. The neosporin site states that they "cannot recommend the use on pets, so contact your vet". This is not saying not to use, but to seek professional instruction before using it on your pet. All medicines have side effects; it doesn't mean it's going to happen to your gerbil. Manuka honey even has side effects upon research. And worried about ingestion? Honey is sweet and that in itself is bad for gerbils. One study refutes another. They don't formulate stuff for rodents, but you can use small doses responsibly without ill effects. I'd still advocate the use of it.
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Post by Ed on Jul 13, 2007 8:41:52 GMT -8
I think it comes to how you would define responsibility tbh. It's only neosporins homepage being responsible to themselves and wise to do so in any case of litigation brought against them after seeing all the anecdotal evidence appearing on many websites where it's use on animals has proved fatal. The evidence however of the three ingredients being harmful has been proved by extensive research and their exists a lot of scientific literature on the subject. This is why GlaxoSmithKline Inc, feels a responsibility to put this research conducted in their pdf link I gave stating that it can cause irreversabe ear damage, all three ingredients can cause kidney damage, and thats it's also neurotoxic as well. It also advises not to use the product at all on infants. Then of course we come down to responsibility of an owner to their pets. We know that when we use a product on them that it isn't ourselves taking the risk when we decide to use a doubtful med. Are we playing with their lives by using a doubtful med? Is it easy enough to say "naah it'll be fine, because at the end of the day it isn't you that i'tll be harming? Is it really responsible when theres medical proof it has caused deaths, and has the ability to cause a great deal of damage, some of it irreversible in humans too, etc and even the manufacturer states not to use it in several circumstances , to then take the risk upon yourself on the animals behalf? Now when you say you still advocate its use would you also let the people you are advising, know the immense volume of evidence pointing at how harmful it is ? because myself being a responsible owner of many pets am doing just that, so will you be doing the same, or would you omit mentioning these other facts available on the product? As to simple sugars being harmful to gerbils, well any food product that any animal/human eats is eventually converted down into simple sugars before it can be digested. www.egerbil.com/sugars.htmlIt, s only when given in excess or over a long period of time that a diet in simple sugars (or empty calories) would prove harmful, just as it would with a diet high in lipids, or high in protein. However because the use of the honey would involve short term use it wouldn't present any problem. Ed
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Post by pepandmax on Jul 13, 2007 8:47:48 GMT -8
I have never put great big gobs on my gerbils, but very small amounts. Do you have any information about the toxicity concentration (i.e. how much it takes to be toxic per kg of body mass) that you're using to dose your animals? Do you have any way of ensuring that all the neosporin is removed? I drive without a seatbelt, and I haven't been killed yet. Does this mean that I should tell other people to drive without seatbelts? (Side note: I always wear a seatbelt, I'm just making a point ). The lead clinician in the Exotics Department of the Cornell University Hospital for Animals recommends against its use. There's one of the best professional opinions in the US. Not sure what else you need. Why take the chance, especially when there are better options for 1) treating wounds and 2) treating infection? I don't know anything about manuka honey; I don't even know if they sell it in the US. So, I can't comment upon this point. But why would you, when there are better options? And I would not. We may have to agree to disagree here. In my opinion, neosporin tends to be used by owners who can't/won't take their gerbils to the vet for a course of oral antibiotics. If your gerbil is injured, you can clean the wounds and there's no need to use this product. If the wound is infected, then a course of oral antibiotics will do a MUCH, MUCH better job of clearing it up than topically applied ointments.
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Post by doomgerbiluk on Jul 13, 2007 10:01:59 GMT -8
Exactly (to Eds post btw). As I said in my post remember TOO MUCH sugar is bad for gerbils, as it is for us. In other words use only as needed, don't smother the poor thing in honey or give honey as daily snack or anything equally stupid.
But honey, a sugar, a natural product against a product that even the manufacturer are advising you not to use, well there's just no contest!!
Apart from all that from whats been said there doesn't seem any indication of infection, just a dead portion of tail, so it's highly possible in this case NEITHER will be needed!!
I appreciate people have a right to a point of view, but when that point of view is possibly harmful to their and other's animals we will continue to emphasise that issue. I have said it before and I will say it again (probably till I'm blue in the face) but the priority is the welfare of the animals and when I see husbandry practices that are downright wrong (not just in my opinion but in the opinion of the top experts and even scientists) I will keep arguing for the welfare of the animals.
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Post by abbey on Jul 13, 2007 10:14:17 GMT -8
Just leave the tail be. The gerbil will either self amputate or the end will fall off when it truly dies. The connecting part is the bone, so twisting/pulling will just hurt a lot.
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Post by myconcordia on Jul 13, 2007 22:30:48 GMT -8
Dear Eddie:1) www.ferret-fact.org/GCCautBacit.htmThis site is for ferrets, not gerbils. If Neosporin is bad for gerbils, I would like to see a reputable website that specifically states Neosporin is harmful for gerbils. 2) ALL oral antibiotics have harmful side-effects, if not potentially instantly fatal. These should only be used in the gravest circumstances as they can be extremely hard on gerbils. 7-10 days of this is extremely rough compared to a few days of topical treatment. 3) "Q. Can I use Neosporin Ointment on my pet? A. We know how well Neosporin Ointment works for you, but we can't recommend using it on animals. Please contact your veterinarian. " (per: www.neosporin.com/firstaid/neosporin.asp?sec=0&page=16). As you stated, this is for litigation purposes as many ignorant people might smother their poor animals with half a tube, which would indeed be poisonous (AS ANYTHING IN EXCESS). If Neosporin was indeed harmful, the company would have answered something to the effect of: No, Neosporin should not be used for pets. Human use only. Instead they refer you to a vet which lends to the idea of getting instruction in regard to type of animal and situation. 4) Manuka honey’s sugar is very harmful to gerbils as sugar breaks down the enzymes in gerbils’ that essentially keeps their teeth the healthy orange-yellow. Once this happens, consequences are fatal, as the enzyme is essential to their body and things will begin to shut down. The change of color in the teeth is an indicator of this process happening. So in fact (besides the aforementioned), just as the over use of Neosporin would be harmful, so would Manuka honey. 5) "Due to the known ototoxic and nephrotoxic potential of neomycin sulfate, the use of PrNEOSPORIN® in large quantities or on large areas for prolonged periods of time is not recommended in circumstances where significant systemic absorption may occur." (Per: www.gsk.ca/en/products/prescription/neosporin_pm_04252003.pdf) This is referring to PAIN RELIEF Neosporin. This is entirely different from normal Neosporin as it has an anesthetic. Gerbils are EXTREMELY sensitive to anesthetic so these studies are correct. As I said previously, I would like to see evidence that specifically addresses the harm of regular Neosporin and it’s specific ill effects on gerbils. 6) ALL medications have side effects. Just because it can happen doesn’t mean it will happen. For one, these are side effects known for humans. Gerbil biology is different, as with other animals. Using any substance entails risk, and with everything, the risk needs to be measured against the potential outcome. Neosporin is low risk because it is an over the counter topical ointment that can be given in extremely low dosages. Neosporin usage in gerbils is in miniscule amounts for not more than a few days, the short duration of an over the counter topical medication does not compare to the week to ten days of prescription oral, which has the possibility of instant fatality. So do you take a small risk (Neosporin) for a minor wound or a large one (oral AB)? 7) Is it playing with their lives if after your vet’s closing hours a gerbil is injured and you use Neosporin to help it? Taking a gerbil to the vet (setting expense aside) is a very stressful and traumatic experience for you pet. Does that not whittle time off your gerbil’s life and eat away at your gerbils state of health? The responsible thing to do is to treat ailments if it is possible (which degloving of a tail with scabs is) yourself as much as possible without the stressful trips to the vet. Is it responsible to wait for a trip to the vet (if it is, indeed, during a closed time,) or if there is a delay in getting an immediate appointment? Will you wait and let the wound worsen, perhaps get infected, get into the bloodstream, and possibly let your gerbil die, just because an appropriately sized dose of Neosporin might have some ill effect because it might on people? 8) www.egerbil.com/sugars.html Nice article, but it does not cover honey specifically, nor does it detail the harmful enzyme destruction as I previously mentioned. I would also like to see this information in a journal or a veterinarian site. 9) As for short-term use of honey—I would be leery of the potential enzyme destruction, but if used for a little bit in small amounts, I don’t see why Neosporin could not be used in the same manner. Dear pepandmax:1) There are no topical medications formulated for gerbils. Even when you go to the vet and they give you an oral antiobiotic, it is a smaller dosage of a medication originally intended for humans. Thus, a small “gerbil-sized” dose of Neosporin would be the equivalent. 2) No, I don’t have toxicity concentration information, but it is minimally used per the instruction of my vets, and comparatively to size, I feel it is appropriate. 3) No, I do not have a way of ensuring that ALL of the Neosporin is off. However ALL of my gerbils ALWAYS roll in the sand that I give them afterwards, and they don’t dig at the area (I monitor them). It makes them feel so much better, and Neosporin aids tremendously in the healing process. Even if some remained it is so minimal, that in the odd case that it would, the Neosporin would not hurt them. 4) Not using Neosporin IS like not wearing a seatbelt because it is there to protect and heal them. By wearing the “Neosporin seat belt” you will be protecting them from receiving further damage as time passes. Every minute that passes after a gerbil injury is critical, as they are small animals. Neosporin is a quick, handy, safe, and effective way to prevent a fatal accident. 5) Please refer to #3 addressed to Eddie. I would, however, like to see the website/article that states: “The lead clinician in the Exotics Department of the Cornell University Hospital for Animals recommends against its use” 6) As for better options for treating wounds and infections, if the injury is not of the nature that requires stronger attention, then Neosporin is a viable approach that will quickly help your gerbil and cease the suffering effectively, as well as aid in the healing process. 7) Yes, we may have to agree to disagree. In my opinion Neosporin is a safe and effective option for responsible gerbil owners. I AM able to take my gerbils to the vets and I DO take them when necessary, but when I can treat it at home without the undue stress, this is the better option. Dear doomgerbiluk:1)About the honey vs. Neosporin Refer to points addressed to Eddie. 2) In concern to welfare of animals, especially in the case of gerbils, to act as swiftly and effectively as possible in response to an injury is necessary. It is imperative that they are treated thusly, as gerbils are small animals with systems susceptible to quick spread of infection. Neosporin fulfills these criteria. When it comes to an injured gerbil, time is of the essence--delay will result in unnecessary spreading of infection that will lead to undeserved, further damage that otherwise could have been averted. 3) In regard to top experts and scientists, I have yet to witness a reputable study, article, or website that specifically states that Neosporin is harmful specifically to gerbils. ***By no means is this a personal attack on any of you. I respect everyone's opinions and my only intention is to have a healthy debate and an exchange of information, with a discussion about both sides.
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Post by ohmylokix on Jul 13, 2007 22:49:56 GMT -8
I don't see why you're making such a huge deal. Sometimes letting it go is the best thing to do. :3
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Post by doomgerbiluk on Jul 14, 2007 0:56:12 GMT -8
In response to your comment. Having bred an awful lot of gerbils (scary to think how many) over the last few years and seen a few injuries, from mum's attacking babies, declanning, and accidents, I can tell you that none of my gerbils have ever had antibiotics after any such injuries, not even Dibbler. NEVER have any of those injuries developed infection. Not once!!
Gerbils have very strong immune systems and in it is a rare case when infection sets in. In most cases gerbil injuries require tlc and their bodies do the rest. Treating with strong drugs just in case isn't necessary or desirable in the vast majority of cases.
With gerbils it is best to treat infections that appear, not to interfere with their natural immune systems by pre-treating.
As for studies, my apologies but I cannot afford to finance such a study. In fact that is why these studies have not been done, to do such studies for every species would be prohibitively expensive!!
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Post by abbey on Jul 14, 2007 5:59:46 GMT -8
I'm not going to tip much on the neosporin topic here as I honestly dont know a lot about it apart from what ive read in the past, which is all negative stuff, but I dont have any experience with it so im in no position to make a real comment there.
I just wanted to reply to this
If it is after the vets closing hours and the animal has a wound, you clean the wound and wait till the next day, if you think the wound is bad enough to warrant a vet trip for antibiotics etc. Most wounds that might get infected in that waiting period will be easily treated by antibiotics when you do get to the vet. It wont die from an infection in 1 day, and if you keep the wound clean then it is unlikely to get infected unless the cage is kept dirty. But anyways, there's emergency vets, so if you think there is a serious risk, then you call an emergency vet.
Most small animals will recover well from injuries they sustain and often there is little the vet can actually do for the physical injuries apart from prescribe painkillers or antibiotics. Eg, a broken leg shouldnt ever be splinted, so there's no point seeing a vet over that, unless the bone is through the skin or such, similar with a dying tail, it will drop off by itself, and unless it is causing serious discomfort to the animal (in which case they'd usually self amputate anyways) then apart from again getting the antibiotics to prevent any infection, there is little the vet will do. Not many will perform a tail amputation.
But that doesnt mean you dont seek vet treatment just because the animal will probably heal eventually by itself. It's always a good idea to ask your vet what they think is a good move to make, and whether the animal needs some medicine or not. People who diagnose health issues by themselves, even by using forums, can still get it wrong, so you need to be sure before taking any action. Even if im pretty sure I know what is wrong with one of my animals i'll always bring them along when collecting meds just to make sure I didnt make a mistake.
As for being stressful, it depends. Most of mine dont mind the vets, I usually carry them in my sleeve unless I have more than one or unless I need them on a heatpad, and even in carriers if you put some tissues and nesting material from their cage they will settle and not be too fussed by the travelling. The actual examination being stressful depends on what the vet is looking at, ie teeth clipping is more stressful than a simple health check, but with rodents the actual act of treatment is very brief, even injections are over in a second. I ususally try treat it as just some out of tank time, playing with them in my hands and letting them explore the table and I usually hold the gerbil whilst the vet is having a look. If you do regular (weekly) health checks then when you are in the vets and you want to open their mouth to show teeth, or look in their ear canal, is all very routine to the animal and it lessens the stress of the situation.
If the animal is very sensitive or in a very fragile state, then you can get a home visit. I'd choose to get a home visit for my pallids if they fell ill as they are hugely sensitive to noise and and probably wouldnt fare well.
Personally regarding neosporin, I would never risk using an unnecessary treatment on my animals if I knew there was a serious shadow of doubt hanging over its toxicity, Even if it were 'more than likely' safe, that's still too much doubt for me to risk their lives.
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Post by pepandmax on Jul 14, 2007 7:37:57 GMT -8
I changed the title of this thread to include a reference to "Neosporin," so other readers in the future can find this thread if they're looking for information about neosporin. I hope you don't mind, AshleyRenee! Now, I'll just respond to the comments that were directed at me. 1) There are no topical medications formulated for gerbils. Even when you go to the vet and they give you an oral antiobiotic, it is a smaller dosage of a medication originally intended for humans. Thus, a small “gerbil-sized” dose of Neosporin would be the equivalent. You are correct that there are no topical medications chemically formulated for gerbils, but there are plenty of oral medications that were developed for non-human animals, including Enrofloxacin (trade name Baytril). What I was trying to point out is that oral antibiotics can be properly dosed, as you know the concentration of the preparation and the amount given to the animal. With topical antibiotics and antibiotics in the waterbottle (which comes up more frequently), there's no way to know how much is actually getting into the animal. Ok. *Shrugs.* Here is where I'll have to take your work for it, as I no longer use the product myself. I still think that an orally-administered painkiller would help more to make them feel better, and I'm still unsure how Neosporin helps with the healing process. As Aed pointed out below, gerbils tend to heal up pretty well on their own, so I'm not sure what Neosporin adds to the process, other than risk. The Neosporin MIGHT not hurt them. There is a difference. Good catch on the fault in my analogy. But again, I think that if your animal is so critically injured that it is in danger of death, skip the Neosporin and get to a vet ASAP. The vet will administer injections of antibiotics, painkillers, and fluids. THAT is the level of care that might save a gerbil's life--not a topical ointment. If this is something that you're seriously interested in, I'll get working on it. (I was told that directly by Dr. Morrissey, but I can call and leave a message asking if he knows of any studies to which he could refer me. That will be a low priority for him, so it might take a while for him to get back to me, but if you're seriously interested, I'll go for it!) Again, I'll refer to Aed's post below. Gerbils tend to heal up pretty well on their own. Not sure what Neosporin adds to the picture, other than risk. Oh dear, I hope that you did not take my post to mean that I don't think you'd go to a vet if you needed to. Clearly, from your well-written posts, you are a responsible pet guardian. I was speaking in generalities based on what I've seen here and elsewhere. 'Tis all. You post was absolutely fine. Thanks for taking the time to explain your position! Best regards, Nicole
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Post by Ed on Jul 14, 2007 10:06:55 GMT -8
Dear Eddie:1) www.ferret-fact.org/GCCautBacit.htmThis site is for ferrets, not gerbils. If Neosporin is bad for gerbils, I would like to see a reputable website that specifically states Neosporin is harmful for gerbils. You will soon I’ve been researching every antibiotic that is, or has been used on gerbils for the past year or so, alongside several vets who have contributed to the article, and in due time It will be available to read on my own website, which is both reputable and very longstanding, and in the past both my website and myself have been consulted many times by researchers, including the BBC, so I hope it's regarded as a reliable source The very fact that deaths were occurring in other species through it’s use , and the fact that I’ve read anecdotal reports of it causing illness in gerbils would make any responsible gerbil owner question it’s use on their gerbils. Well yes, they do and this goes for all antibiotics no matter what their mode of application, this is why they should be prescribed by a vet and used under their guidance and not self medicated. Yes and that’s why I gave you the link to GlaxoSmithKline Inc. put out on the product, where it also stated that Polymyxin B and Neomycin Sulfates, and Bacitracin, which are the three antibiotics used in all the neosporin products except their irrigating solution which they omit bacitracin for obvious reasons, which all suggests that these antibiotics would all be very dubious if applied topically to a gerbil. So to quote them again specifically on the antibiotics it contains, "Due to the known ototoxic and nephrotoxic potential of neomycin sulfate" and, "neomycin sulfate, polymyxin B sulfate, and bacitracin zinc have nephrotoxic potential; polymyxin B sulfate has neurotoxic potential." Well tooth enamel of rodents is very hard and is often often an orange-yellow colour due to the incorporation of iron-containing pigments. Iron is deposited into the mature enamel by ameloblasts that outline enamel surface of the teeth. It's this that gives them their colour not an enzyme. So if your gerbils teeth are white it would indicate a serious underlying illness! Enzymes are catalysts, and help to speed up biochemical reactions in the body,. They are there to help essential bodily functions such as digestion and blood coagulation. Its the enzymes known as Amylases that break down sugars, and enzymes in themselves are not affected by the activity that it sets off. So would you care to explain further on this? Well for the sake of grasping at nutritional basics, the stomach of the gerbil is very simple and the caecum and colon are not especially well developed, which is suggestive of a species that in nature consumes mostly low-fibre foods such as seeds and plant matter. (see the research of Gulotta, 1971; Vorontsov, 1979). So it's safe to assume that a gerbils diet consists mainly of carbohydrates, with small amounts of fat and protein. Now ALL carbohydrates are broken down into single sugars before digestion. Now if we take a look at the composition of honey we would see that its main components are single sugars. These are mainly fructose (approx 38.5%) and glucose (approx 31.0%). The remaining carbohydrates include maltose, sucrose, and other complex carbohydrates. Now seeing that in the wild the gerbils diet has evolved to be one that relies on the digestion of sugars for energy, why would offering them simple sugars in captivity suddenly disrupt or affect the enzymes needed for absorption of these basic elements in their diet? Please see my above reply on this subject, the potential of irreversible ear damage, kidney damage and being neorotaxic lies with its primary ingredients which are the antibiotics used in all neosporin products.You are choosing not to read their very specific information refarding the three antibiotics that all Neosporin products contains. Yes in some, but not all instances a gerbils biology is different, and if you knew this you would realize that a gerbils diet in nature is a low fibre one, and that anything it eats is quickly converted into simple sugars before digestion. The risks on all antibiotics are available if you take the trouble to research them, and that’s why if you choose to use or advise the use of Neosporin, you should be aquainted with the risks of the three antibiotics used in its manufacture. I personally feel that in all but the gravest situations antibiotics shouldn’t be used on gerbils. As for injuries, gerbils heal at an extremely rapid rate and do not need any self medicationg and certainly not with OTC antibiotics, and in all but the most urgent of cases, they won't need them. Again if you are aquainted with gerbil biology, you would know that a gerbils tail is designed to deglove against predators, this plus it’s fast healing capacity, plus the fact that the gerbil can’t nip into the local desert pharmacy, tells you that in all probability that the tail heals without intervention. So unless extreme complications set in, a gerbil would most likely recover fine without any antibiotic use whatsoever, and the only requirement from the owner to guard against infection which can be done with washing the affected area with a saline solution, or a similar product. Thank you However I will cover honey and it's ingredients very specifically in the article I mentioned earlier on antibiotics. As for soucres on sugars, well the above is basic taught inforation for anyone taking A level nutrition and similar subjects at college in the UK. Feel free to google any of the info on sugars on the internet, or nip down to your local library and you will find ample literature on the subject. Ed
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Post by doomgerbiluk on Jul 14, 2007 14:37:01 GMT -8
And just to ensure I'm clear about this, I fully agree that their is no substitute for a vet visit when your concerned about a pet. Self-administration of ABs, for instance, is not advisable. My vet does give me extra so that I can administer in certain circumstances, but those circumstances are ones I have consulted him on previously. I believe Ed has a similar relationship with his vet. If I am in anyway unsure about a treatment or know it is one I cannot treat myself I see my vet. Aed's guidance on breaks is spot on. A simple break will heal surprisingly quickly, anything more complex must be a vet consultation.
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Post by myconcordia on Jul 15, 2007 19:08:26 GMT -8
pepandmax: I am intrigued. If you don't mind asking about the info, I wouldn't mind waiting for it.
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Post by randomgerbil on Jul 16, 2007 3:21:13 GMT -8
I've never heard of neospirin before this thread. I have used Dettol a few times with gerbils but mostly with rabbits. I have never given antibiotics after an injury with gerbils or cleaned it with salt water (hadn't heard of that method before this forum either). I have NEVER (touch wood) lost a gerbil to an injury and I have seen some accidents. With injuries I keep them warm - I know with rabbits most injured ones end up dead not of the injury but of pneumonia because they move around less (obviously not with tiny cuts or anything) - and if they appear in extreme pain may consider getting pain killers (have never actually had to but considered it) and have bathed in gently in a very diluted bowl of Dettol. I don't know if that makes sense but I'm tired! I have taken them to a vet before but my gerbils are taken in the car when young so tht they're used to it and I assume this makes the journey a lot less stressful, but if the gerbils are easily stressed I would phone the vet and ask if they can help over the phone.
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