|
Post by Ritzie/Admin on Apr 30, 2005 1:23:47 GMT -8
I've opened this topic again! I think Tirilliel has the right to have her own opinion. She has the right to voice her opinion. This is still an independent gerbil forum! And I don't feel that she is flaming or attacking anyone. Beside that, I think it is an interesting topic!
But let we all please keep on having a good discussion. So I won't accept any possible future flaming, etc.
About the tank size! I have to say that I'm not used to gallons! As we here use the metric system.
The "standard" tank sizes that I recommend on my page are: When you only keep 2-4 Mongolian gerbils in one cage you'll need a surface of at least 800 cm² per animal. So a surface of 30 x 60 for two gerbils, 40 x 60 cm for 3 gerbils or a surface of 40 x 80 cm for 4 gerbils are good examples. When you want to keep more than 4 gerbils together, you can reduce the surface to 500 cm² per animal. The height of the cage needs to be at least 30 cm, because Mongolian gerbils can jump very well. You can increase the surface by making more floors, or connecting more cages together. It is better to have a cage that is bigger than the here named guidelines, but keep in mind that a cage that is too large can cause territory forming inside a cage, which will result in declaning.
|
|
|
Post by Ritzie/Admin on Apr 30, 2005 1:31:32 GMT -8
For others who have a problem with gallons, inches, feet, litres or centimeters, here is a good page where you can compare tank sizes: www.maisel.de/~eva/cagesizes.html. 10 US gallon, is about 8 UK gallon and this is about 38 litre and about 51 x 26 x 30 cm. Seeing this, a 10 US gallon tank is in my opinion a bit too small for two Mongolian gerbils. To my opinion a 15 US gallon would than be the minimum. However, I like to give my gerbils also larger tanks, as I feel that more space is always good for any captive animal. And because Mongolian gerbils are quite active and lively! So especially when they haven;t much toys, wheels, etc. Also good to prevent stereotipic behaviour, like compulsive corner digging, etc. Two of my main tanks are 80 x 40 x 40 cm. (I'm not sure but I think this is about 25-30 US gallon???) Here an image: Note, they are not longer connected! In one two Mongolian males are housed, in the other five female fat-tailed gerbils. But I have also some smaller tanks, all with two male fat-tailed gerbils. I don't know the sizes by head right know! Because they all differ.
|
|
|
Post by tirilliel on Apr 30, 2005 5:20:01 GMT -8
I've opened this topic again! I think Tirilliel has the right to have her own opinion. She has the right to voice her opinion. This is still an independent gerbil forum! And I don't feel that she is flaming or attacking anyone. Beside that, I think it is an interesting topic!
But let we all please keep on having a good discussion. So I won't accept any possible future flaming, etc. Peter, Again I want to thank you for seeing this my way and acknowledging that there was no need to lock this topic and I am glad to see you have taken an interest in the issue. I was very unhappy when I found my topic had be locked because to me I feel this is a serious issue and I obviously was not happy about my resent found knowledge about this standard and wanted to express myself which I clearly did, and I allowed people to voice theres and although I dont feel I have singled out any individual and was rude to them I will apologize to anyone that feels I have attacked them in any manner. Its not always easy trying to express yourself on such a topic when Im sure many people probably are practicing the very thing I am strongly against which may be why they felt threatened but to clarify, if anyone does keep their pets in a 10-gallon that doesnt make me feel they are automatically a bad owner, But I still disagree with the amount of living space. That again being the 10-gallon standard... Anyway moving along... Peter I really love your tank! Its a very lovely set up and it doesnt look tacky at all My husband doesnt care to much for my bin cages I have stacked ontop of each other in the living room, But I feel better knowing they have the space. My gerbil bin also attached to a 10 gallon with tubes but at the moment Iv singled it down to the one bin as my female is expecting pups soon Im glad to know that your thoughts on the caging issue are (pro)-more room and that you feel a 15 gallon should me the minimal, I have to say it is refreshing to see someone that does agree to a point, Thanks for the gallons, inches, feet, litres or centimeters conversion thing I hope that people will continue to post and tell what they feel the standards should be about housing for gerbils and share their opinions.
|
|
|
Post by queenofthenile on Apr 30, 2005 6:32:27 GMT -8
Hmmm... Now that Peter posted about the difference between UK and US gallons, it makes me wonder. What if the "standard" 10 gallon rule means UK gallons ? That would mean in the US that the minimum would be 12.5 gallons. Just food for thought, considering that gerbils have been pets in Europe longer than in North America. I think the reason the standard has been set at 10 gallons, is because of the price of larger tanks. It is ridiculous the amount charged for 20 gallons (haven't seen many in between sizes). Most parents *will not* pay for the larger tank. Besides, trying to move my 27 gallon is a pain in the butt! I personally think that with the sort of housing available for rodents, that a ten gallon tank is the lesser of two evils. The cages made for small rodents are even tinier, and are not set up for the burrowing of gerbies. I don't think that 10 gallons are so bad if the gerbils are getting out everyday. I decided to upgrade my housing just because of that reason. I originally thought I could let my gerbils out everyday, but with 3 cats, and ample electrical cords, I've found this is not feasible (I've had 3 "accidents" fortunately with no injuries). So now my gerbils are in atleast 15 gallons with a cage on top. I also think 10 gallons is okay if you are breeding. Larger housing is hard to accomadate for on shelving. I do think that bin cages are the way to go, however. It would be nice if we could get the word out about how inexpensive bin cages are compared to other housing. Despite my rambling, I really think that the minimum for gerbils is 15 gallons. There are cases, however, where this is not feasible. I think we have to take personal situations into account as well. I do agree however, that setting the "standard" at 10 gallons sends the message to gerbil lovers that it is ideal housing. Ideal, of course, is much larger.
|
|
|
Post by RitzieAnn on Apr 30, 2005 8:19:21 GMT -8
I had 2 gerbils in a larger tank, and made pizza box lid walls with passage ways, and they didn't really care for it. they just stayed in the part that had levels, and they hardly used the other part. So I have them in a 10 gal. Besides, I think there's more you can do to expand a 10gal. I also keep my girls in a smaller tank because of all the things I"ve heard about declaning. Apparently, I've got an abnormally huge clan of females (unless someone has more... speak up) but I've got 5 girls living together. Until I was sure they'd stick together, they were in a 10 gal for about a week, then I got them a big cage topper that makes their floor space a little more than 20 gals, and they LOVE running up and down in it! They're up and down the ramp all the time, and climbing on the levels and up the walls! Here's a shot...
|
|
|
Post by sandy on Apr 30, 2005 8:58:11 GMT -8
I keep all my gerbils in 10 gallons. I have a lot of gerbils and have to get them into one room and on a shelf. BUT I let my gerbils out every day for exercise, and those that are able to have a wheel (ie: no young pups) get one. I have one tank set up as a sand bath, and everyone gets a bath everyday and time to dig. People have to manage with what they've got, and some people can't afford a lot. But everyone here has a nice, big bathtub. Go put your gerbils in it once or twice a day with lots of toys! They love it.
|
|
|
Post by AndreaS15 on Apr 30, 2005 10:51:04 GMT -8
I keep all my gerbils in 10 gallons. I have a lot of gerbils and have to get them into one room and on a shelf. BUT I let my gerbils out every day for exercise, and those that are able to have a wheel (ie: no young pups) get one. I have one tank set up as a sand bath, and everyone gets a bath everyday and time to dig. People have to manage with what they've got, and some people can't afford a lot. But everyone here has a nice, big bathtub. Go put your gerbils in it once or twice a day with lots of toys! They love it. I have to agree with you Sandy. Maybe I've been reading this thred wrong, I read everything like it's directed at me But I don't feel because I (or anyone else for that matter) keep gerbils in a 10g tank that i am a bad gerbil mother... have you seen my gerbils? they are of perfect health and temperment. No depressed or ill treated animals here. Anyways, i only keep one ten gallon, because when i can afford it I prefer to have a larger space for my babies, I think we all do. I have 4 ten gallon tanks that were given to me for free, you bet I'm going to put them to use! 11 gerbils can empty my small wallet pretty quickly. I have just built a "Topper" from plexy-glass for one 10g aquarium, and will be connecting two others together. So yes I keep gerbils in 10 gallon aquariums untill i can buy/build something bigger. You may not have to agree, But I think we all agree we would LOVE to have the largest housings for our beloved pets, but unfortunetly that all cost $$ soem of us may not have. And I'm not going to flame someone who rescues gerbils or just has a love for them but not enough money for buy them a palace, Loving homes are hard to come by sometimes.
|
|
|
Post by gerbilsrgreat on Apr 30, 2005 12:59:55 GMT -8
I think 10 gallons is a little too long. I have a busy schedule so my gerbies don't get out every day so I like having a 20-gallon long for them;) I have 2 in one 20-long and 1 in another, he's an adopted one and doesn't like anybody else. (A 20-long is about 75 cm long and about 30 cm deep) -Jeremiah
|
|
|
Post by tirilliel on Apr 30, 2005 13:36:25 GMT -8
queenofthenile
Good point about the UK and US difference about gallons. I wonder if maybe there was some misunderstanding with that, However the person I was having a disagreement with I think is American so I would only assume that is was the American version for gallons.
My 10-gallon is roughly about 19 inches long by 10 inches wide by 13 inches deep. So according to the conversion thats ca. 51 x 26 x 30 cm- ca. 45 L.
I can totally understand about how tanks can be a bit pricey. Plus as you said the larger the tank the harder to move around and maneuver. I had my two roborovskis dwarf hamsters in a 29-gallon and I wouldnt want to put them in anything less then that. They love running around and foraging for food. Its a natural behavior. Now these little buggers are only literally about an inch long in size, so keeping that in mind one might be able to stand how Im not happy with the standard caging for gerbils.
I think that when it comes to owning any animals is important you can afford it. If someone cant afford to buy something more then a 10 gallons for their pet then how do they expect to have to pay for a veterinary bill of it ever came down to it?
I think most store made cages are desined for smaller pets like mice and dwarf hamsters. Many people in the hamster community that own the larger Syrian hamster find that habitrails made for this type of hamster are still to small at lest here in the US and the tubes arent large enough for many full grown Syrian hamsters. But besides that fact alone non of the cages are really designed to meet the needs of the gerbil more provide any kind of natural like habitat for them.
RitzieAnn
I dont feel bad about 10 gallons when they are expanded on, like some people can get tank topper or many have some tubes going into another small ten gallon. For me the issue is living space, the distance they have to actually walk around and explore and forage as they would in the wild. I think in small cages like a 10 gallon where that is all there are limited to it makes for a poor environment as far as gage enrichment goes, it doesnt offer allot of exploratory space and the area for them to urinate is much smaller there for I cant see foraging for food and digging in that would be as healthy or enjoyable. Of course I dont know what the rodents are thinking, this is just how I feel, I try and look at things from the gerbils perspective and try and make things the best I can that way.
I never heard about "declaning" and really I dont see how it could be an issue unless they were provided with so many different cage environments that attached to each other that might separate the colony and pecking order. I cant see that just having a large tank or bin cage would cause any damage. Ill have to read into this as I dont know much about it.
But your cage does look nice I think the cage topper adds allot of good room in it, Im surprised you have plastic tubes in there. Mine chew up anything like that. I had a plastic igloo and had to take it up because they were nibbling it apart.
Sandy,
The bath tub idea inst a bad one and although I disagree with the whole 10 gallon thing it does make me feel better to know when people take the time to give them interesting things to do. I know gerbils come the desert and I think they should be introduced to natural sand, its after all the home terrain where they come from, it seems a shame one might have to live in a tank full of unnatural bedding without touching sand. I think it makes their live more interesting. I like to take mine out and let them run in their pen, but I prefer to offer them as mush room I can with things like sand in their everyday environment.
AndreaS15 Its important that when you read a thread like this that is open for debate that you really "read" what the person is saying. If you scan through my posts here I usually always try to say things like "I feel" or "I think" this makes it so that Im not saying to anyone that they are wrong if they are against my feelings, its more simply put as an opinion of mine. Does that make sence? This way word dont need to be taken personally when they were never directed at any one person.
And I definitely dont think or ever said that if a person keep their gerbil in a 10-gallon that makes them a bad owner I dont think that at all. The argument really is what should we be telling people is the standard because I know I dont want to give anyone the impression that its ok to keep a gerbil in cramped living conditions like that. Maybe it will get them to think a bit more before buying one if they realize space may be an issue.
Anyway I think people should be more educated about these bin cages, you can buy a great rubber maid bin with a strong locking top for about 12 dallars, then all you need to do is spend a little money on some mesh and the hardwear to hold it on and you have a large light weight easy to clean enclosure for under 20 bucks, and the cool think about them is that they stack, I think people with minimal space should look into bins.. or maybe buy a small bin and attach the 20 gallon to it and make the gerbils like a bit more encriched.
|
|
|
Post by RitzieAnn on Apr 30, 2005 23:31:21 GMT -8
;D I saw a 150gal tank at PetsMart, and I'd love to get it for my gerbils, and then just let them all clan together, and do all those types of things naturally, but it is really expensive, and so the cage topper was all I could afford. I'm starting to save to get another one so that my boys can have one too! And about the plastic tubes, they're not in there all the time, it's just added in for play times. When they come up to be socialible I give them sunflower seads and add the tubes and they run in them, then come for a treat. They like the game!
|
|
|
Post by imnotagerbil on May 1, 2005 0:07:01 GMT -8
OMG!!! 150 gallons are you crazy ;D That must be huge! imagine all the work everytime you clean the cage, want to catch a gerbil... Anyways do you remember how much the aquarium alone with no top... no furniture costs?? People have been saying aquariums are expensive... but if you have the time you can buy cheap on ebay, or a store that does only aquariums.... i found an aquarium with nothing inside (usually its hard to find one because they have things for fish inside already included) not really expensive In the US i payed 40 dollars for 20 gallon and in france 52euros for 24 gallons ( things in France are always more expensive) Or you could always build you're own aquarium, itll take time but itll be cheaper since youll be using less thicker glass since its not for water/fish.... Anyways about the 10 gallon thing its the owners choice..
|
|
|
Post by tirilliel on May 1, 2005 4:55:14 GMT -8
I SAY!!! Lets Do Away With The Gerbil Tank! Bin Cages Are New And Improved!! You can easily make one for less than 20 dollars!! Here is an article I wrote and converted to show on the forum. How I Made My Bin Cage[/u] "Written by Tirilliel"Since I came across these bin cages I decided never to go back to those ordinary or to extraordinary expensive store bought rodent cages. More often then not I find most of the typical pet store rodent animal cages to be to small. I cant help but look at the majority of them and think of how it must be to live in such a confined area. In the wild a gerbil will roam much farther then the small area offered as floor space in any regular small animal cage. I know that we offer them an exercise wheel for that extra added physical fitness, But it is in my view that this just isnt good enough. Within reason I feel the largest possible cage should be offered and thats what is great about making a bin cage. They are starting to become popular amongst hamster and gerbil lovers , and if you plan on breeding this is an affordable way to save on gerbil enclosures, not to mention that they are easily stackable and can save you allot of room. First you will want to take a look at the needed supplies. Bin cages can be made with old wire rodent cages or birdcages. However you dont need to have an old cage, wire mesh can be purchased for a few dollars a foot from any hardware store. Next you will want to find a sturdy plastic storage bin. Preferably with heavy locking lids. Rubbermaid is a good choice both strong and sturdy. It might be ideal to find a bin that is clear allowing some light through and also allowing you to see the gerbil besides when it come up to the mounted bars. You will need the fallowing tools to cut holes in the front, sides and top of the bin. - Marker or Tape:
This will be used to mark the areas on the bin where you plan to cut out ventilation areas.
- Drill:
In order to cut the holes you will first need to drill a good sized whole into the plastic first to allow your cutting tool to have a place to start. Be sure to drill a hole in every corner of you plan to cut a ventilation hole so that you can easily and smoothly cut the plastic in straight line.
- Scroll Saw:
This is what you will use to cut the shapes out where you intend to mount the bars or mesh for ventilation. Do not attempt to cut around corners with the scroll saw, use the drilled holes as your starting point only cutting in straight lines. This helps avoid the plastic from cracking.
- Rough Sandpaper:
This will be used for sanding any rough pieces of plastic off the cut out hole in your bin
There are a number of places you can choose to cut your ventilation areas. Your imagination really is the limit here. But for an example I decided to cut out an area in the lid of my bin and two places on the side where I planed to mount my water bottle and exercise wheel, as well as a large area in the front that I would use as my bin cage door. You could simply put mesh here and access the cage from taking the lid off. Before you start mark your bin with a marker or tape where you plan on cutting for ventilation. Make sure that the hole you cut out is smaller then the amount of mesh or wire you plan on using. The wire or mesh will be mounted from the inside and there must be enough over lap to prevent your gerbil from gnawing on the plastic edges. NOTE: This bin cage was originally made for a hamster. For a gerbil you may just want to have a ventilation area on the lid to allow ther gerbils to dig and not make a mess by pushing bedding through the bars. below is another bin example... Here are the fallowing tools you will need to prepare the wire or mesh - Hacksaw:
This will be used for cutting the wire from and old cage if necessary.
- Wire Cutters:
for the obvious reason, you will be able to use these for cutting thin pieces of wire.
- Metal File:
This will be used for sanding down sharp wire edges. You dont want your hamster or yourself to be injured by sharp metal. It is important this is smoothed down.
You will also need a number of washers, nuts and bolts that will be used to secure the wire or mesh onto the bin cages.You will need to pre drill holes around the outside of your cut out areas so that you can put the bolt through. To do this hold the wire or mesh to the inside of the bin centering it to the cut out areas. While you hold the wire in place mark where you plan on drilling your holes for the bolt to fit through. Its safe to say that there should be a nut, bolt and two washers for every six inches of space to make sure that the wire or mesh is held on securely and hugs closely to the plastic of the bin. Having this in mind plot out where your bolts nut and washer will be placed and from there determine how many of these items you will need to purchase. A washer should be larger then the bar spacing and there should be one used on both the inside and outside of the bin cage this will help evenly disperse the weight over the bar side and plastic side. You will want to make sure that the wire or mesh is mounted from the inside and is larger in size then the cut out area of the plastic bin. This will prevent your hamster from being able to gnaw on the plastic edges. Once you have sanded down any sharp edges on the wire with the metal file and sanded off any loose particles of plastic from the cut out holes you can now mount the wire or mesh. Once this is done and you have mounted on the wire or mesh go back around and securely tighten the nuts to make sure the wire is snug and secure to the plastic bin. Give the inside of the bin a wipe with a damp cloth or use a vacuum to remove any small bits of plastic. Now you have a basic and complete bin cage and are now ready to put a small furry friend inside. Bin Notes:[/u] - Using old cages that housed a perviously ill rodent: If you are using part from a old hamster cage where the deceased animal died of an illness all materials used should be sterilized. One way of doing this is soaking or cleaning with a diluted solution of 9 parts water and 1 parts bleach. Make sure the cage parts are washed thoroughly with soap and water and allowed time to air dry for a week or two.
Disclaimer: This is just a little article about how I made my bin cage. Although I find these cages to be safe a escape proof I am not responsible for what happens with your pet or bin cage. I am simply offering a guide to make your own if you choose so.
|
|
|
Post by Ritzie/Admin on May 1, 2005 5:34:51 GMT -8
Glass tanks can indee be very expensive! A cheaper solution is to make one yourself, or buy tanks of other materials! Like bin cages or duna cages. About the cage sizes! In the Netherlands the standard size for two gerbils is a surface of at least 800 cm² per animal! We don't use gallons. Here an image where you can compare US Gallon tanks: This picture, kindly sent in by Janelle Switzer, may help for comparison. Taken from: www.maisel.de/~eva/cagesizes.html.
|
|
|
Post by imnotagerbil on May 1, 2005 5:38:20 GMT -8
yEP LIKE i said beofre you can build you're own instead of using glass u can use flexible plastic which youi can see through as well and is durable... So building you're own is really cheap plus you can add stuff/ levels
|
|
|
Post by Ritzie/Admin on May 1, 2005 5:49:07 GMT -8
I haven't had any complains from members on certain posts in this topic, but RyanF has. I someone has complaints on certain posts I would gladly receive them. I'm not closing this topic, but posts can always be editted.
Let us all please listed to each others opinions and don't be judgemental. Every member has the right on their own opinion and to voice it! Members have to accept each others opinion, but they don't have to agree.
As for 10 US gallon tanks, as stated before for standards in the Netherlands the are just a bit too small! But one standard is not better than the other. personally I like to give them larger tanks, but I know not everyone has the money to buy them. Or they just don't feel the need. That is OK. And personally I think there is a big difference when you have a small tank with nothing in it, or when you have a small tank with floors, toys, etc. And when gerbils are allowed be out of the cage to get exercise.
And for the people here who have 10 US gallon tanks, please don't feel offended or attacked by someone who does not agree with you! When you feel that your gerbils are fine in their 10 gallon tank, than it is of course ok. You can the best judge your gerbil's welfare and wellbeing. If you feel that this is not the case, you can add floors, toys, etc. or purchase another tank.
|
|