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Post by floppy on Apr 17, 2004 16:43:33 GMT -8
You can keep a brother and sister together to breed if that's what you want. I personally don't agree with it. It's just the whole brother/sister thing. I wouldn't sleep with my brother so why would I put my pets in that situation? Some people will probably think I'm crazy for thinking like that but that's just how I think! There is a lot of debate about this because a lot of people say it ok and others totally disagree. I just think it's wrong, but if it's what you want then do like Andrea says and only let the first generation inbreed. If you then let their pups inbreed too you are more likely to end up with deformities. Also, make sure you can find good homes for the pups you have now and for any more pups you might have in the future...before you keep breeding.
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Post by queenofthenile on Apr 17, 2004 18:02:20 GMT -8
What colour are your gerbils? I would not consider inbreeding if they are not a very unusual colour. For instance, I have considered inbreeding Siamese for 1 generation because there are only 3 siamese breeders I know of in all of Canada! If they are just black, agouti, argente or lilac, I wouldn't inbreed because you could find a suitable gerbil partner just at the petstore. It would be much safer that way. Inbreeding increases your chances of having genetic defects because your two gerbils are carrying many of the same genes. Possible defects include fused wrists and kinked tails. Did they come from the same store? I especially wouldn't inbreed if the gerbils came from the same petstore. There is a good chance that they are from the same litter - so that would mean your pups are already inbred. Floppy, I think that's funny about your reasonings for not inbreeding . I had never thought of it that way before. In my opinion, gerbils don't know the difference, and they don't care (they do it in the wild). But I do understand where your coming from!
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Post by floppy on Apr 17, 2004 18:11:41 GMT -8
Queenofthenile, A lot of people probably think I'm weird for thinking like that. I had a discussion about it on another forum and a lot of people disagreed with me! However, some did agree also Still, the world would be a very boring place if we all agreed on everything! I think some of my thinking comes from the fact that my female gerbil Molly has genetic defects. We got her at a petshop and I tried my best to find out about the breeder but they wouldn't tell me much. We fell in love with her straight away and wouldn't swap her for anything. She has a kink in her tail, only one nail on her right hand and she can't produce milk to feed her pups. Her other half has been neutered because it broke my heart taking her babies away when they were a couple of hours old to foster them. Molly would be depressed for a couple of days afterwards. She really tried to look after them and would have made a great mother if she'd had the chance. She's actually my most crazy gerbil. She has a mad personality totally unlike any of other gerbils. She's probably my tamest gerbil too. She will sit in my hand for ages just looking and winking at me. And she vibrates a lot! It's lovely to have her sit in your hand while she eats a treat too. She's very cute
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Post by queenofthenile on Apr 17, 2004 18:16:01 GMT -8
She sounds really sweet .
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Post by Victoria on Apr 18, 2004 5:04:06 GMT -8
Well one of the babies that i want to inbreed is Siamese and the toher the mle is a called light fox or red fox i think. i don't know fi i should do it or not help me out please
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Post by Ritzie/Admin on Apr 18, 2004 5:16:28 GMT -8
Than that book is totally wrong! When a brother and sister breed together it is definatelly inbreeding! Actually very much! I shall spare you all theoratically calculations, but when a brother and sister breed together than their pups are inbred. 25% of the genes of the pup will be inbred, thus homozygonous! When that happens they usually develop lethal or or other not wanted characteristics. Even when you breed with with to cousins the pups will be inbred, so with a brother and sister it is more.
All individuals that that breed and have a common ancestor will have inbred pups! How high the level of inbreeding is depends on how far away the common ancestor is in the familiy tree.
(I study Wildlife management, so I have to do with breeding programmes in zoos and in the wild. I have had a lot of population genetics, etc. That is how I know this)
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Post by Ritzie/Admin on Apr 18, 2004 5:45:54 GMT -8
(I only read now the posts on the second page) Their is indeed much discussion about inbreeding with gerbils! With inbreeding the genes get homozygous, thus you get two of the same genes. (aa = homozygous, Aa = heterozygous). As mentioned before, 25% of the genes of pups from a brother and sister is homozygous by inbreeding. So 25% chanche on problems.
However I have to tell that this is not a real problem with all animal species, so are very resistant and others really not. The species that have no problems when inbred are most of the times animals that have been inbred for a very long time. Usually a population that started with very few founders. Species on islands are an example! Natural selection has selected the animals that stayed healthy and were 'normal'. Due to this the lethal and problem causing genes are gone! The animals are still homozygous but that is not a problem anymore for their health!
What a described is often also the case with animals that have their origin in laboratoria! In a laboratory animals are also most of the times highly inbred, because they have to react the same on an experiment! So they have all to be very genetically alike!
As Mongolian gerbils have also their origin in laboratoria, it is possible that they have less problems with inbreeding than other pets.
However I would recommend not to breed with a brother or sister (or any other relative) if you're able to use non-related animals. (animals that are genetically alike react e.g. the same on a disease, so for example if one dies, it is likely that all die, because they react all the same than)
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Post by queenofthenile on Apr 18, 2004 9:38:12 GMT -8
Victoria: Are red fox and siamese gerbils available in your area? If so, I would NOT consider inbreeding. Did you get them from a store? I would also would not inbreed if you don't have the resources to house 2 litters of possibly abnormal pups. You will have a really hard time selling genetically-"defective" pups, so you have to realize that you may need to house 2 litters of pups before you can split the breeding pair. This is a decision that YOU need to make. What are your options? Do you have a high demand for the colours you are planning to breed for? Can you possibly find a suitable mate somewhere else? Do you have enough resources to take care of unsellable pups?
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Post by Victoria on Apr 18, 2004 15:58:13 GMT -8
Okay I have deiced bnot to inbreed. There ar eno other breeders inmy area and I have never seen a siamese gerbil anywhere but in my litter. Thanks for th advice!
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Post by andrea on Apr 19, 2004 2:36:26 GMT -8
What country are you from Victoria, the siamese is quite common and one of the most popular colours here in the UK. Although lots of breeders have found that siamese do not breed very well as the traditional siamese has orginated from a lot of inbreeding, we got our siamese male from Eddie Cope (hes a successful gerbil breeder and showr in the UK) and our simese male is very fertile but he has been bred from a himilayan and burmese pairing (I don't really understand the geneitcs of it all) but basically he has not got the inbreeding and traditional problems of a siamese. I hope I understood what eddie told me If you need some genetics or colours advice (hope you don't mind me posting a link to Eddies site Peter) his gerbils forum is on his website www.gerbilshowsuk.orgAndrea
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Post by Victoria on Apr 19, 2004 13:56:48 GMT -8
Im in the USA and there are almost no breeders of any color here or anywhere near me. I am the only one and have lots of people who want baby gerbils. How many more days until my babies open their eyes? They are 12 right now.
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Post by floppy on Apr 19, 2004 14:53:36 GMT -8
There eyes should open when they are 17 days old. Mine always open around this time but I think they say 17-20 days, so you've only got 5-7 days to wait!
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Post by andrea on Apr 19, 2004 23:58:48 GMT -8
They are at there most cutest just as the eyes are opening, the get to what I call "radio control car" stage LOL.. They all run around with there tails in the air like little aerials. ;D
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Post by Ritzie/Admin on Apr 20, 2004 5:47:06 GMT -8
If you need some genetics or colours advice (hope you don't mind me posting a link to Eddies site Peter) his gerbils forum is on his website www.gerbilshowsuk.orgNo, I don't mind! This forum is to help people with gerbils and it is allowed to place gerbil related links! Eddie's website is also great (I visit it also regularly). About to use an himalayan and a burmese to breed siamese: A siamese has the following colour genetics: aa c c[h] D- E- G- P- spsp, so you need a combination of c (also known as c[chm]) and c[h]. This can af course be done by breeding two siamese together, but also, as Eddie has done for Andrea, with one burmese (aa cc D- E- G- P- spsp) with an himalayan (-- c[h]c[h] D- E- -- P- sp- ). When you mate these two your pups will have of course cc[h] in their genetics, the c from the burmese and the c[h] from the himalayan. This way the pups will be siamese! I hope you understand.
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Post by andrea on Apr 20, 2004 6:04:29 GMT -8
Thanks Peter!, Eddie did tell me the background of the siamese but it seems to float into one ear and out the other !! LOL
He said that he obained some siamese when he first started breeding colourpoints but found he just got very few and bad pups. So he decided to make his own siamese, using burmeses and himilayans, the result was our male. Hes now partnered with a burmese we got from Del Trelore (Etosha Stud) They have had some lovely pups, we have kept one male from there pairng which eddie says we should show ;D
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