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Post by sprigmom on Jan 5, 2005 11:51:44 GMT -8
I'm beginning to wonder (sort of) whether I want to continue breeding: Buffy savaged the remaining 3 pups overnight. Applesauce has both back legs injured: one is broken. He also has puncture wounds up both sides of his tummy. He drags himself around. Cuddles has one puncture wound on his inner thigh (right where it joins the body) and he seems ok otherwise. I think it's because he's got both eyes open now and was able to avoid her more. Fuzzums, on the other hand, is awful. He's got puncture wounds all over his underside and thighs and worst of all there's a huge gash where his penis should be. I haven't probed around TOO much, so it could just be dwarfed by the slight swelling or under a skin flap, but... GOD! I saw her take him in her jaws and flip him into the air, then run over to him to start again, before I could get the lid off. Obviously, I've removed them. I've given them all KMR (due for it again soon), put antibiotic cream on the wounds (they're too weak to lick it right now) and they're in a plastic box with toilet tissue wads all around, over and under them. The lid has air holes, and I have a small heat mat under the box. (The whole setup is suspended over a wastebasket so it doesn't overheat the plastic.) I called the local vet that handles gerbils, etc and they told me that Applesauce and Fuzzums should be PTS. Anyone think I'd be able to pull them through?
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Post by callimico on Jan 5, 2005 12:01:17 GMT -8
Oh Springmom, I'm so sorry, that's awful. Is this their first litter? If she's chewing her own pups so brutally it's probably best to avoid breeding her in the future I'm sorry about the little pups. I'd try to pull them through if I were you, they haven't had much of a shot at life yet, I think your doing right by giving them the best chance that you can. Hopefully they'll recover. How old are they though? around 17 days? They should be able to eat solids in another four days or so then, which will be the 'over the hill' mark. I hope they make it, keep us updated, and good luck!!! btw, where was dad during this? Did he try to protect the pups, or did he just stay out of the mom's way? Again, sorry How many were born?
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Post by sprigmom on Jan 5, 2005 12:17:49 GMT -8
No, this is her second. Thing is, when she had her first litter, she was living w/her sister and the dad. Her sister had pups within a day of Buffy's, and they all took turns in the caretaking! (I didn't know better then, now don't have two girls together anymore. I got lucky the first time.) This current litter was born 17 days ago, you're right. There were 5, but four of them developed respiratory trouble and we lost two despite ornacyline treatments. These three were the only ones left. Coal (Dad) was there with her the whole time. I saw him run over when she attacked Fuzz, but he just sat there next to her, darn him! Oh Springmom, I'm so sorry, that's awful. Is this their first litter? If she's chewing her own pups so brutally it's probably best to avoid breeding her in the future I'm sorry about the little pups. I'd try to pull them through if I were you, they haven't had much of a shot at life yet, I think your doing right by giving them the best chance that you can. Hopefully they'll recover. How old are they though? around 17 days? They should be able to eat solids in another four days or so then, which will be the 'over the hill' mark. I hope they make it, keep us updated, and good luck!!! btw, where was dad during this? Did he try to protect the pups, or did he just stay out of the mom's way? Again, sorry How many were born?
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Post by callimico on Jan 5, 2005 12:54:02 GMT -8
Sorry about the other 2, but I'm glad you managed to save the rest with the ornacylcine treatments. It's unusual for pups to click so early, before their eyes even open, maybe it's not genetic but some bedding got damp or something That makes it really rough to treat, when they're so tiny Was Buffy's dad the father of her and her sisters first litter? I've heard if 2+ females have litters at the same time its safe to leave them together, but trouble starts if only one has a litter, and if that ones the non-dominant girl. It's strange that mom was fine with her first litter, but this one she's attacking....maybe you could pair Coal with another female and keep breeding him, but retire Buffy. Since most the pups had respiratory problems, you probably want to split the pair anyways. Did you treat Buffy's first litter w/Ornacycline to, or was it only once she had pups with Coal that you had to? But maybe by her third litter she'll be back on track and all the pups will grow up healthy, did she only start attacking them after they started clicking and having breathing problems? I know that sometimes mothers sense something is genetically wrong with their pups and kill them early before they get older and breed these problems back into the rest of the clan, a natural instinct, maybe its the case with her. Hope the pups make it, KMR feeding is really hard, (I attempted to give ornacycline to a pup once a while ago via dropper and made a big mess, but he grew up perfectly fine and stopped clicking on his own, almost immediately). Poor Fuzzums, I hope it' s just the swelling and once that goes down he'll be alright.
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Post by sweetie on Jan 5, 2005 13:26:59 GMT -8
Hey Sprig, I am sorry that you had to and are experiencing this. I can partially relate. My Momma Bear had 8 pups and now she has 6. I never saw the brutality. She is doing fine with the remaining 6. They are a little smaller than normal but I think that is just because she had such a big litter. I think that she (and maybe Dad) took care of the *sickly* pups. I was not invasive since this is her 1st litter. I did a head count daily but did not pick any up as I did with Bandits litter. She still appears to be doing well with her parenting. Perhaps as Cal suggested it was an anormality and that is why she is behaving this way. It would make sense since her first litter was raised well and this current litter is sick. I hope you do well with your remaining 3. Keep us posted.
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Post by sprigmom on Jan 5, 2005 13:35:08 GMT -8
Sigh again. Fuzz is gone. Probably just as well, he was ripped the worst. Only thing is, I was just telling my son that all this had happened when I found he was dead. Fuzz was "his", he picked the name. I'm thinking Appy's not far behind. I'm keeping my fingers crossed for Cuddles, tho. The respiratory I think was due to a combo of dusty bedding and dirty as well. It was time to clean just as she was due and I didn't want to upset her. Coal is the father of all three litters. We got him a week or so after the two girls. I am going to retire Buffy, but we may still have another litter coming yet. I hope to God that she's going to behave next time! We have a little girl from an early fall litter that we bought in Nov, so I think I'll intro her and Coal. Yes, Buff didn't attack until after the illness hit, so I agree that it was probably the instinct thing. My rational mind knows what happened and why, but the other side is really sad and angry. My son (he's 10) always talks to all our gerbies when he comes home from school. Today he went in and "chewed her out"; I think he feels betrayed that she would do this. I explained, and I think it'll be ok, but he's really upset about it all. Too many deaths lately. It's unusual for pups to click so early, before their eyes even open, maybe it's not genetic but some bedding got damp or something Was Buffy's dad the father of her and her sisters first litter? It's strange that mom was fine with her first litter, but this one she's attacking....maybe you could pair Coal with another female and keep breeding him, but retire Buffy. Since most the pups had respiratory problems, you probably want to split the pair anyways. Did you treat Buffy's first litter w/Ornacycline to, or was it only once she had pups with Coal that you had to? But maybe by her third litter she'll be back on track and all the pups will grow up healthy, did she only start attacking them after they started clicking and having breathing problems? I know that sometimes mothers sense something is genetically wrong with their pups and kill them early before they get older and breed these problems back into the rest of the clan, a natural instinct, maybe its the case with her. Poor Fuzzums, I hope it' s just the swelling and once that goes down he'll be alright.
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Post by sweetie on Jan 5, 2005 13:39:24 GMT -8
It is hard to view and accept even though it is natures way of handling it. I hope you little guy is not too upset. I am sure that you explained it and his expressions to Mom may even help him get resolution. I hope he gets over the betrayl. That is the hardest!!! I just explained to my 2 kids (5yrs & 3 Yrs) that we can't find the other 2 amidst all the shavings. I am lucky to be able to explain it like that *for now*. Again, I am sorry . I hope at least Cuddles pulls through.
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Post by Gwirrel on Jan 5, 2005 14:03:47 GMT -8
I'm sorry to hear about your pups...
Is the female pregnant again? Sometimes, when a female is nursing she doesn't always delay the next litter coming and so will attack the present litter in order to be able to give the next litter all her milk. She can do this around the three week mark... These are 17 days old and it does seem a little early, but perhaps this is the reason for her attacking the litter?
But saying that, good luck and hopefully no others will die.
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Post by doomgerbiluk on Jan 5, 2005 14:12:05 GMT -8
There are so many possible reasons. I hope your son can get over his anger. Myabve next tiem it would be best if the didnt know about the litter early, but if he does I recommend that pups are not named until after they are weaned. that way if anything goes wrong there is less emotional attachment.
I am not surprised dad didnt intervene I doubt he would dare....Mums tend to be in charge of pup-rearing. He may be best to look after the pups now though. They will benefit from the presence of a caring parent who can keep them clean and warm.
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Post by sprigmom on Jan 8, 2005 0:15:09 GMT -8
Well, I decided to wait a while before I gave another report. We're down to one pup left. Cuddles seems to be recovering fairly well. She wobbles around exploring; crawled up my front yesterday morning. I'm not sure if she was born with a club foot and I didn't notice it before, or if it was an injury that I missed in my disagreeessment (stupid profanity filter! a s s e s sment) the other day, but her right front foot has all the toes drawn in together and she doesn't use it right when she walks. I'm wondering if she didn't have a stroke, actually. Her little eyes are bright but she is very wobbly and she kind of "chirps" almost all the time. Not the same sound as w/respiratory problems. More like communication. She's been eating a few nibbles of an egg biscuit dipped in KMR 3 or 4 times a day. Doesn't seem hungry in between; I've tried more frequently. I have a water bottle in her box and a heat mat under it. There's lots of t-paper wads all around her to help keep her feeling safe/warm. I put a t-paper tube in yesterday, she seems to sleep in it now. Any ideas what I should do? Her bite wound seems to be healing nicely. Should I try to put her with her daddy? (without Mom, of course!)
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Post by callimico on Jan 8, 2005 10:46:05 GMT -8
I'm glad Cuddles is recovering Sounds like the foot is an injury that didn't heal quite right, have her eyes opened up then? She should be able to eat solid food starting around tomrrow (21 days or so). Doesn't sound like she's eating to much, but if she's got enough energy to move around and has plenty of food offered I guess she's monitoring herself alright. You could see if she'll eat peanuts, a little bit of applesauce, or crack a sunflower for her, maybe she's ready to try solids. It's great that she's walking around, and even managed to climb straight up ;D. I've read that gerbils chirp when they're happy to see each other, but I've also read that it could be a sign of pain- maybe she's not putting weight on her foot because it hurts. Some gerbils make a chirping noise when they're calling to their mothers she probably thinks your her mom now. Btw, what color is Cuddles? About placing her with dad, I don't really know, somebody else will have better advise. I know most fathers should take great care of little pups, even after they've been away for a couple days. But because she's injured that makes it a little more risky. I'd try it, in a clean tank, just like introducing two strange gerbils, and hopefully he'll take to her right away.
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Post by sandy on Jan 8, 2005 16:57:00 GMT -8
Yes, if it was my call I'd have taken the mom out of the tank and split caged her with the female you are planning to place her with, and leave all the pups with dad to look after. Then supplement feed them every couple of hours and give them "easy" food like breakfast cereal, rolled oats, millet, powdered milk and access to water. Dad will teach them how to drink at this age. Good luck!
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Post by callimico on Jan 8, 2005 18:41:41 GMT -8
The only thing is, mom's got another litter coming right? If she's not with dad, she'll be all alone to raise the next pups and that may make it even worse for them. I don't know if you'll be able to re-introduce dad or another male to her, to help care for the upcoming litter? Unless you had dad and daughter on one side of a split cage, and mom on the other, so dad could care for the daughter until she's 5 weeks or so, and then let him (or maybe the daughter will be accepted by now), back with mom to help out with the new batch. Do you know of any other breeders around you? If you did you could leave the daughter with dad, and when mom's pups are born, if she starts to get agressive with them, place the pups with another nursing mom. But maybe mom'll be alright raising this litter on her own.
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Post by sprigmom on Jan 9, 2005 3:27:45 GMT -8
Right now, Dad's still w/Mom and Cuddles is in a "hospital" tank by her self. But I do want to get her in w/someone. I have an older sister that's by herself as well, but it's because she's a little nutso! I have a little female dove that I want to put in w/Dad, but now I'm not sure what the heck to do with her! I don't really want to leave Dad and Mom together, since I don't want her to breed again. I don't know for sure if she's pregnant this time around or not. She didn't get pregnant after her first litter (they were born end of September) even tho I saw them mating. I may split cage Mom and older sib mentioned above, as well as split cage Dad and Cuddles with the dove, then I can move him over when the time comes, and Cuddles will have had the benefit of his "teaching" for a couple of weeks. Hmmm...
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Post by sprigmom on Jan 9, 2005 3:38:45 GMT -8
On the bright side, Cuddles is doing pretty well, considering. She looks so cute scampering around, I still feel really bad about the whole incident, but she makes me laugh to watch her. I found that the back leg that was wounded by mom is a little lame as well, so she's got two bad legs, opposite each other (right front, left rear.) Consequently, when she "runs" she kinda bounces. She looks like a little teeny kangaroo. BTW, Calli, she's an agouti. If you go to member photos, you'll find her there.
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