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Post by woestrat on Dec 23, 2005 15:50:18 GMT -8
Two years ago a breeding couple of mine (siamese x burmese) had 3 perfect litters. The 4th litter had to female puppys without eyes. There was no eye, just a hole that was visable around the 17th day The eyes where covert with skin around the 20th day.
The 2 Burmese sisters died at 8 weeks en 12 weeks old.
The litter nr 5 also had 1 Burmese pup that was born with no eyes. I decided to stop breeding with these animals and the are still alive as pets. The pup with no eyes lived to be 7 month, lived as a pet and died by a cat.
Anyhow, never puppys with no eyes….was the planning
But I have a new breeding couple Burmese x siamese spotted. They had there first litter . 5 pups. 2 siamese, 1 spotted Burmese and 2 burmese. The 2 burmese and spotted Burmese are born without eyes.
I now that one of every 100.000 human children is born without eyes, because of a gene mutation in the first month of the pregnancy Also dogs are sometimes born with no eyes.
But did it ever happened with rodents, especially gerbils. And what causes it to happen!
Is it just chance or do the parents carry a defected gene
Greets Iris
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Post by maxthegerbil on Dec 24, 2005 2:25:07 GMT -8
Hello Iris. It`s very difficult to say why this happens, but an educated guess would be the genetics of one particular animal? I`m no expert in gene and genetic science, but I would stop breeding from ANY animal who I thought was predisposed to this problem. Not breeding from any animal you can`t trace the original background of would be risky anyway. i`m so sorry you have had babies born with no eyes and no doubt it would be a kindness to them to end their suffering early in life, unless you feel their quality of life is generally good. But I can`t see how a blind gerbil from birth would manage easily to be honest. A gerbil who gets cataracts in old age would at least know the layout of their home and familiar smells, so in this instance, the gerbil would still manage to find his or her way around having already stayed in that environment most of their life anyway. A born blind baby would struggle to survive in my opinion.
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Post by woestrat on Dec 24, 2005 9:30:01 GMT -8
thats also a probleme. beside the missing eyes there in perfect health to play in de wheel (running wheel), the eat, play, run, dig
yust everything gerbils do.
also they can find the waterbottle even when it is replaced
so killing them doesn't seem fare.
Ofcourse I won't breed with them. But the female is pragnent so an other litter will come
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Post by AndreaS15 on Dec 26, 2005 13:30:08 GMT -8
I would no longer breed the parents, i mean it's strange to have one pup like that, but more then one there is obviously a problem. I would keep the blind ones together (as long as they are same sex), alot of handicap animals get along just fine with there disabilities, there is no need to end thier lives if they are not in pain. As for the water bottle, I would just replace it in the same corner after ever re-fill.
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Post by meganb52 on Dec 27, 2005 9:20:52 GMT -8
I would be intersted to see what these gerbils look like (from a veterinary standpoint) I also agree with not breeding this pair again. That does sound very strange though that two separate breeding pairs would produce pups with the same problem. Are these new parents from the same line as the first set of parents? That would help to explain a genetic defect present in both cases. Do you know anything about where they came from? if you knew anything about the brothers and sisters of the parents that might help too...
-Megan
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Post by woestrat on Dec 28, 2005 23:48:17 GMT -8
i know everything about theme they are 100% not related to the other couple. they are from clean breeding lines (no brother on sister ect.)
I will take some pictures and show them.
But still my questions are not answerd:
But did it ever happened with rodents, especially gerbils. And what causes it to happen!
Is it just chance or do the parents carry a defected gene
Ofcourse I would breed with them or with the parends anymore. That was never an issue
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Post by doomgerbiluk on Dec 29, 2005 3:13:43 GMT -8
Yes gerbils can be born without eyes (as can any species). Mutations happen, sometimes they are due to inbreeding, sometimes they just happen randomly (that's how evolution works after all). the reason mutations are common in inbred animals is because the odds of two genes the same (not the loci we talk about for colours but any gene) are obviously greater and this multiplication increases the chance of faulty genes recurring. It is also why inbreedign (and line breeding to some extent) reduces 'vigor' ( the overall resistance and size of litters). Hybrid vigor is introduced to any stock (plant or animals) by breeding introduction of unrelated individuals). Not all mutations are bad of course. All the colours bar agouti in gerbils occur because of careful breeding of past mutations. In pa\llid gerbils the spotted mutation has recently occured and is being 'worked on' by various breeders. With global climate change a reality adaptation through mutation will be essential to many species' survival in the near future. Anyway I digress, there may also be environmental factors involved. We have all heard of human babys' development being affected by chemicals, diet or radiation. So here is where the breeder has to make a decision, do you assume it is a genetic issue and stop breeding from that pair? Do you carefully review diet and environment for possible cause? Do you hope it's a one off mutation and breed another litter, watching carefuly for recurrence?
Gerbils born blind do fine btw. I agree in the wild their chances of survival are poor. Thsi is due to one factor. My gerbil Dan was born blind and copes fien in EVERY way except one. He is easily startled if you pick him up from above without 'warning' him. Gerbils eyes are designed to look up for predators, especially birds. A blind gerbil would be easy prey and for this reason would not survive long in the desert. Other than this sight is a secondary sense and not essential for pet gerbils.
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Post by woestrat on Dec 30, 2005 3:07:14 GMT -8
Thanks for your reaction
I do think it's a genetic problem. But im sure that there is no inbreeding in this familytree I don't think it is a enviroment problem. I have more than 100 adult gerbils in "large" housing 60x30 for 2 animals. In Glas (terrarium/aquarium) and Plastic (duna and rody) and lab-cages.
They all have a very good foodmix. I've been feeding this for the last 5 years.
Im gonna take pictures today
update: 2 little puppys without eyes died yesterday. They died of diaria, quite common problem with youngsters who start to eat sollid food in stat of milk.
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Post by doomgerbiluk on Dec 30, 2005 4:21:39 GMT -8
No diarrhoea in gerbil pups at weaning (or any other time) is not normal or common. Fatal diarhoea is always serious and you should consult a vet. It can be caused by salmonella, e-coli or a number of other diseases. In all likelihood your parent gerbils carry a bug. All should be treated, and if you have not been strict in hygeine between your cages you may have to treat all your stock. If the diarhoea reccurs it is worth having a culture done. Without treatment the bug can devastate your stock and especially the stock of anyone who has animals from you and introduces a bug to unresistant gerbils.
As for the eyes, yes in your case it is probably genetic and hereditary. Mutations, by definition, are random and presumably your mother gerbil has a faulty gene which is not encoding properly the proteins needed for growth of healthy eyes.
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Post by woestrat on Dec 30, 2005 10:08:33 GMT -8
No Fatal Diarhoea does not always need a vet. at least that is my opinion. Pups of 2 weeks old who get it can not be treaten by a vet. The chance of dying of stress, cold, or a to high dossis of antibiotics is a bigger treat. I let my vet (specialist in exotic animals) check the droppings ones every 3 month. Every 6 month the animals get a cure against parasits. But Anyhow here are the pictures not super pictures because photographing an eye that isn't there on dark coloured animals isn't easy the first photo shows a burmese female. Her eyelid is grown together. The second photo shows a burmese female with open eyelids. there is a black hole The third photo shows a (little bit sick) burmese female. Here eyelids are also grown back together. They where opened like the gerbil on the second photo It's not a dangerus ecoli that is killing the pups with fatal diarhoea. (every creaters has ecoli) It is the transfer from milk to normal food. They are blind and have a smaller chance of finding food than there siblings. Ofcourse they have smell and touhgs but still, it is harder to find everything I clean cages with pups of 2 -4 weeks old every week to keep it hygeine I have 30 breeding pairs of mongolian gerbils, that have 6 pups every 5 weeks. 1 in 12 puppy's does not reach the age of 8 weeks. of the pups that die, almost all die before they are a week old. 30 % dies after that week of diarhoe. It means that of the 180 pups every 5 weeks 15 puppy's die. and only 5 die of diarhoea But still i can't stand it that they die hahaha
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Post by woestrat on Jan 17, 2006 1:56:45 GMT -8
here is a foto of the only pup without eyes who servived It is a siamese spotted female. She lives now in a pupcage (with 12 other femeles of 5-6 weeks old), she's doing fine.
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Post by maiziecat17 on Jan 17, 2006 10:17:44 GMT -8
awww bless her! i hope she lives a long time!
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Post by Amie on Jan 21, 2006 9:05:44 GMT -8
aww she is really sweet I am so sorry to hear about the other pups that have died though But I hope this one lives a long and happy life ;D Megan
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Post by sandy on Jan 22, 2006 19:32:41 GMT -8
Just want to say that I also breed a fairly high number of pups and so far 0% have died from diarrhoea so I think you might have a problem of some kind there. It is not normal. Also very, very few of my pups die from respiratory infections--in all my years breeding, there are fewer than six deaths of pups from that, and zero adults.
Perhaps a factor is that I do not get gerbils from outside very often, and I quarantine. I also do not breed other species of rodents at this time. I have a degu in the same room, that is all. Though I have children, I have a strict hand-cleansing rule and keep alcohol-based hand rubs in the gerbil area. The kids enjoy using it!
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Post by Ritzie/Admin on Jan 24, 2006 9:18:59 GMT -8
I think the missing eyes is most likely a genetic defect. So it is indeed probably best to not breed from that line.
Diarrhoea can be a serious problem, and E. coli too. However, there are many different strains of E. coli and most are not dangerous. I know Eddie had problems, and maybe some others, but I personally haven't heard of many severe problems yet, luckily.
I agree with the others here that it is wise to having a culture done, if the (fatal) diarrhoea returns. Just to be sure that you don't have a deadly strain of E. coli or other infection. Because it might indeed be the case that those can be a problem to unresistant gerbils if it is truely a deadly strain. But it might also be a non-dangerous strain.
And I have to say, I've never had diarrhoea in my gerbils, also not when I bred them. So if it happens often, there might indeed be a (minor or serious) problem.
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