Schimmels!

[Shaleeta]

Hello, all! 

This is my first post here. I've had gerbils for just the past year, before that Chinchilla's, Degus, and rats (as well as dogs and cats). It's kind of long, apologies! 

Anyhow, I'm trying to learn genetics, and I'm slowly getting there, I think. I understand punnet squares and alleles, and am studying the gene pairs that affect color in gerbils... fun, but challenging. I don't plan on breeding for at least a year, if at all (I would be breeding for temperament first, but also for colour projects, and I'd like to be able to show them in the AGS!). 

At this point, I have 8 pet gerbils, in three separate clans. Six boys, two girls. One gerbil, Finnegan, is about a 6-month-old Schimmel (possibly light Schimmel). I adore his temperament and color (he's in my profile photo and twice in my signature) and would like to have one (well, because of the whole breeds after birth thing, probably would be two) litters with him in a couple of months, and hold back the pups as pets, so if I do decide to breed, I don't completely lose his lines. I have plenty of space and large aquariums and could rehome a few pups to interested and responsible friends if there are 16+ pups, but I'm trying to sort out -who- he should be bred to retain the e(f)e(f) gene needed for Schimmels, and am hoping those here could give me a hand, and let me know if I'm on the right track! 

From what I understand, without another Schimmel e(f)e(f) there is no way to know if e(f) is present, as it's recessive, so it's mostly a gamble, but I think a gerbil with the e gene would be most likely to produce Schimmel, yes? 

(IE: Yellow Fox, Silver Point, Nutmeg, Polar Fox, LR Fox, DEH, BEW...)

I'm not sure either of my girls would be the best match, but I do have good relations with a breeder who would be open to me purchasing from her for breeding. 

My girls are: 

1. Spotted Siamese, from the breeder, 3-4 generation, healthy and friendly. I took a litter of pups in after the mom died, and she was the only girl in the litter of 4. She's 2 months old. 
2. Argente, pet store stock (I bought her to pair up with the one little girl in the litter, so she wouldn't be lonely). Three months old. 

Am I correct in believing neither would be optimal to pair with Finnegan to continue the line of Schimmel? I could breed once to keep the genes for the temperament only, in which case I would go with the Siamese girl, who has been bred several generations specifically for temperament. 

Anyhow, thanks for providing an outlet to chat about gerbils! <3 

[Shooting Star]

You're very, very unlikely to get Schimmel pups from Finnegan, unless you get a female from a line *known* to carry Schimmel. However, all of his pups will carry Schimmel no matter what female you choose, so you would simply need to find a Schimmel or Schimmel-carrier mate for a son or daughter to get Schimmels back in the next generation.

Recessive yellow (ee) colors are not more likely to carry Schimmel. However, they are more likely to *show* Schimmel traits if they do happen to be carrying it. That's not much help to you though, since even then they usually don't show Schimmel-type fading until they're older. When they're young, they're just lighter, maybe less ticking. Which could easily be explained by carrying a colorpoint recessive instead of Schimmel.

[Shaleeta]

Thanks, Shooting Star! Perhaps I can find another Schimmel/Schimmel carrier in time for one of his pups to have another. That leads to another question though--line breeding ethics in Gerbils. So, I know in rat breeding that some direct line breeding is acceptable, even the norm to establish traits and color, but I wasn't sure about gerbils.

If, for example, I bred Finn to both unrelated females (which I honestly don't plan to, too many gerbils for me right now! Just a what-if) then those gerbils are half-siblings. Is that considered an ethical pairing among gerbil breeders? Even if it's a healthy pairing, I do plan to join the AGS and show, so I'd rather avoid any possible political issues.

Also if I did get to the point that I had some possible Schimmel babies, I would definitely keep them long enough to establish whether that's really what they were! I've heard 8-10 weeks it becomes fairly apparent.

I think I'll leave it as long as possible, and continue thinking and researching. I understand a female can breed until about 2 years old; is there a time when it becomes more dangerous for her to begin breeding, or an ideal time for them to breed? I would like to leave her to at least a year, if possible, to give myself more time, but not if it increases the chance of problems.

[Shooting Star]

While the AGS has no official position on linebreeding or inbreeding, most of the veteran breeders know there's no problem with doing it carefully. I put far more emphasis on how a breeding pair complements each other than how they're related.

What I meant with the recessive yellows is that if they carry Schimmel (so, ee[f]), they often don't fade until they're seniors. RY and Schimmel are on the same locus, they can't be both.

There's some progress pictures of ee, ee[f], and e[f]e[f] here: shootingstargerbils.com/genetics-E.html

But the lightness and fading doesn't always mean a gerbil is ee[f]. See how this Yellow Fox is all pale and patchy?



She turned out not to be ee[f] at all, but Cc[chm] ee.