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Post by Thelodar on Mar 17, 2020 10:43:56 GMT -8
I am contemplating breeding my lone DTW male (recent declan) with my lone dove or sapphire female (tankmate recently died). I am primarily thinking of doing this in order to make new tank mates for both of them, and to make it possible to pair them each with two new tank mates. I've been in a pattern of pairing older gerbils with single pups and having to do it again when the older one dies. I'd like to get out of that pattern and giving them each a pair of pups would do that. Plus I wouldn't have to go through two splits that may or may not work. This would be my first time breeding...
That said, after some preliminary color genetics research I'm afraid I'm going to have trouble rehoming the pups I don't need to keep. I was hoping someone could see if I've got this all correct:
The breeder I got potential dad from has told me that he is aa and PP. I cannot tell if mom is dove or sapphire.
I know if she's sapphire I'm likely to get black and Siamese. If she's dove I'm likely to get black and DTW. I'm afraid I'll have a hard time finding homes for a bunch of black and white gerbils.
It is theoretically possible to get nutmeg and silver nutmeg with this pairing, right? Anything else?
Do you think I'm putting myself in a bad situation for rehoming the extras?
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Post by betty on Mar 27, 2020 0:56:43 GMT -8
Sorry this has taken so long to reply - what with everything going on out here.
Do you still need advice on this pairing or have you gone ahead anyway?
And yes, you are right about the possibility of many of the ee colours and possibly the uwd colours too - but you are wrong that people don't want black and white gerbils (they were just as popular when I was breeding) however I am not 100% sure you would have someone to home the gerbils too if the current 'stay at home' message is extended.
Pups 'created' now would need 3 weeks to cook, then a further 6/7 weeks at the latest before being seperated from mum - that is just over 2 months - so would people be able to come and collect those from you I don't know. You could get anything from 2 to 10 pups from one pairing, and it is around an average of 12 pups from two standard litters - but could be higher or lower of course. So as long as you have extra space in your own home for an teenage gerbil pups you aren't keeping yourself until you CAN home them - you should be alright.
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Post by Thelodar on Mar 27, 2020 15:29:15 GMT -8
Thanks so much for your advice. Glad to hear my colors won't be rejects lol. I have decided to breed them, they are in a split now. I'm hoping to put them together on her next heat, probably Mondayish. I did consider the current events, I was thinking by the time the first litter can go home it should be about mid June. I think they're expecting things to be in better shape by then, but we'll see. Plus, I work at petsmart and small animal sales have jumped way up since schools were shut down so it might not effect my ability to rehome them as much as one might think. In any case I completely agree that anyone who breeds gerbils needs to be prepared to keep them all of necessary. My room will be a little crowded but tanks and cost of care won't be a problem. I'm excited, just hoping things go smoothly.
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Post by betty on Apr 14, 2020 8:25:29 GMT -8
I assume the split went well then Thelodar?
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Post by Thelodar on Apr 15, 2020 11:54:30 GMT -8
Yes! Took a little longer than I expected for a male and female based on what others told me (I did two intro attempts that were not great but not horrible before the successful one), but they went together and mated last Tuesday. She has not gone back into heat since, so I expect she's pregnant and babies will be due around May 1st. I'll start another thread to follow her pregnancy and the pups' development. Liam's behavior towards Piper worries me a bit...but I'm hoping I'm just being paranoid. Piper squeaks pretty much every time he grooms her but doesn't move and isn't losing fur or anything. I'm starting to think she's just a squeaky gerbil, but she never made much noise when she was with her female partner. Liam also seems to guard stuff from her quite a bit. Like if I give them a tissue box and they both jump in together he'll posture at her (sideways) and make her leave the box. But he'll stop after a few minutes of it being in there. If he's foraging for food and she comes really close (she likes being near him) he'll charge her so she moves off. I'm not sure if this is fallout from Mowgli being aggressive towards him during the declan or what, Liam was never like this towards Mowgli. They sleep together and seem fine the majority of the time, I just don't get the impression that he's super into Piper. Hopefully his dad skills are better than his boyfriend skills.
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Post by betty on Apr 21, 2020 5:39:28 GMT -8
Absolutely gerbils dads are great dads - and soon enough I am sure her hormones will make her the dominant one - or at least be a force to be recked with. Males around pup-birth are very meek and tend to hide out of the way of mum (except when allowed to matae again. So pretty soon the dynamics between them may have changed.
Just thinking of colours then now that she looks more Sapphire - have you worked out all the possible colour combonations yet? Most people work out the definites - then the possibles.
I suppose, you only really need two colours in the pups to make them pairable (rather than identical). I once had a pair of gerbils who could have had ANY genes at all out there when alone - but no - they had unchangeable combinations when added together and all 13 pups were the same colour. All of them. All 13 - identical.
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Post by Thelodar on Apr 24, 2020 8:52:16 GMT -8
Shortly after my last post I went ahead and cleaned the tank for the first time since the split, filling it with deep bedding. Since then Liam has been a much nicer partner, guess he was just grumpy about the sparse environment. I've had to decrease bedding again since the babies will be coming, hopefully he's not too upset about it.
If she is sapphire it means there is a good chance of siamese colored pups, which would be fantastic, as well as blacks. Those two colors should be most prevalent I think. I can't find any working genetic calculators online, so I know the possibilities, but not the probabilities. I can't imagine all identical pups lol. When I adopted gerbils from the shelter it was clear they grouped the pairs/trios by color (they were from a hoarding situation so I think the shelter split them into groups), each grouping was identical. So I took home three boys, all red fox. One had a notch in his ear so I could id him but the other two were nearly identical, it drove me nuts.
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Post by betty on Apr 27, 2020 4:48:18 GMT -8
If you can for him (if you haven't already) create that higher ledge with a nest that he can retire to - my jird dad moved straight out the nest when the babies arrived into his cosy bolt hole (not so quiet now that the pups can climb!). I think this really helps the mums too as it is one less thing to worry about?
As for the breeding - I think I still have a calculator downloaded that I could use for you for the percentages: what actual genes do you have so far? Please add to the below if you have any more details:
Dad: aa c(?) c(?) ** P* **
Mum: aa chm chm E* pp U* (if sapphire)
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Post by Thelodar on Apr 27, 2020 16:20:45 GMT -8
Dad is (as long as breeder is remembering correctly): aa ch ch ** PP **
Sapphires are: aa c chm E* pp U* I believe, not chm chm.
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Post by betty on Apr 28, 2020 5:07:46 GMT -8
Yes, sorry - got carried away with my c genes...
So found the calculator (can't remember if it was Shooting Stars or Moonstones - but thank you both anyway).
Looks like (based on your given genes):
50% Black and 50% Siamese
If both have e or uwd:
37.5% Black; 37.5% Siamese - then 12.5% Nutmeg/Slate and 12.5% LNut/LSlate
If your male has actually got a Pp instead of PP (it becomes 25% black/Siamese/Dove/PEW) and with a recessive added to that - it opens up about 4+ more visible colours.
And, if he actually has an A instead of aa - then it would double that again to all the matching colour pairs (black - agouti: siamese - lcpagouti: etc).
Isn't waiting painful?
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Post by Thelodar on Apr 28, 2020 9:54:05 GMT -8
Thanks Betty! I can't wait to see what I get. The wait is killing me, this week is just creeping along.
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Post by betty on Apr 29, 2020 5:46:49 GMT -8
Tick Tock...
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