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Post by gerbilord on Jul 24, 2020 2:35:17 GMT -8
I think the more experience they have, the better the breeder, also how responsible they are - do they have back-up cages in case the gerbils are not wanted and do they have people interested in buying before breeding, will they take back gerbils if unwanted at some point etc.
I am not as close as you - about 1 hour and 30 mins away.
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Post by Markpd on Jul 24, 2020 2:38:41 GMT -8
I did see that she was willing to take back Gerbils, which is a positive sign (not that I plan to hand any back!)
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Post by Markpd on Jul 24, 2020 14:17:14 GMT -8
Think I'm going to visit her tomorrow if I have time....... The fan at the back isn't screwed in yet, the fan at the front is and has a fan guard on it. I found I could mount the fan on the mesh by using the fan guard to clamp onto the mesh with the screws, I still need to get fan guards for the top to stop my fingers getting whacked! Also I need to rig up the wiring from the power adapter to the fans, I'm going to wire them in series so that they run at about 1/2 speed, hopefully that'll be slow enough and still provide a nice breeze . PS Since the 1st photo I've moved the sand bath under the ramp and extended the digging area slightly (and added a 2nd ramp). PPS That's my niece and nephew .
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Post by betty on Jul 24, 2020 14:37:53 GMT -8
Yes, she's a well known breeder - also does duprasi I believe?
Not sure about the fans myself as you won't want a constant breeze blowing into the tank really - never known anyone to set these up so will be interested to hear how it goes and I presume you have a thermometer to see if they actually reduce the temperature in there when used.
I would also be extra careful about those wires as gerbils can use their little hands to pull things in - and although they can't reach it now and you will not plan on setting the tank up so they could, but when you least expect it - BAM - they will. You have clearly never come home to totally destroyed curtains yet? Perhaps consider using board over that end of the wire to protect them to be sure.
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Post by LilyandDaisy on Jul 24, 2020 14:53:05 GMT -8
I would also be worried that if the gerbils stick their noses through the mesh, they might get whacked by the fans. I'm not sure how close the blades get to the mesh.
The gerbils will definitely chew the wires if at all possible. I once left a jumper next to a cage and came home to a cage littered with red wool.
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Post by betty on Jul 24, 2020 15:07:07 GMT -8
We've all been there haven't we: that moment when you first see it and can't quite figure out what's happened?
Rascals...
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Post by Markpd on Jul 24, 2020 16:07:17 GMT -8
betty Good to hear about the breeder .
Yea sorry I was kind of linking on from a thread about how to keep Gerbils cool, there I mentioned that I would only be turning the fans on when it gets to about 30C, or if the Gerbils show signs of flagging a little below that. So because of that, no need for a thermostat (though it did cross my mind to have the fans thermally operated, but that's a project for another day , I'd need a temperature sensor and some sort of PWM control module for that), I'll just keep an eye on the forecast and switch them on if they say it's going to get near or over 30C. Say at 27C plus?
About the breeze, these are very low powered fans (0.16A & 0.18A), additionally because I will be wiring them in series this means that each fan will only get 1/2 the power (so equivalent to running these 12v fans on 6v, or close anyway as each fan has a slightly different resistance), anyway the upshot is they will be turning at very low RPM for this size fan, and so should be very quiet, and the breeze will be very, very gentle. I anticipate that at ground level, directly below, (with the substrate in), I should marginally feel the wind on the back of my hand. In fact, they might be turning too slow to make a worthwhile difference! Lol, in which case I'll have to have a rethink. So seeing as the breeze will be very gentle, if the Gerbils don't like it then they can easily keep away from it, I will monitor them to see how/if they make use of it. As for cage temps, I didn't really have it in mind to lower that with the fans (you can't get below ambient anyway), but I guess inevitably it will slightly due to the airflow, it was more about that they could sit in the area of the fans breeze to cool off if they needed and wanted too, I think it was LilyandDaisy who mentioned that her Gerbils liked to do that .
Regarding the wires, as I mentioned they're not setup yet, but good point about the little buggers could grab them! , I will either mount them ~1cm clear of the mesh or put them through a metal tube, or like you said a little board, hmm I'll have to think exactly what I'm going to do there..... Never had curtains trashed by Gerbils, but I remember my step mum's Hamster managed to grab hold of a towel and partially trash that! lol
LilyandDaisy I guessed you missed the bit where I said their is a fan guard over the fan and the mesh , you can partially see it in the 2nd photo (the circular chrome steel wires). Their spacing is about 7mm, so they'll never get their noses through there, would they stick their paws through it though?? [edit] Here's a close up pic of a 120mm fan guard. Re jumper, lol, RIP.
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Post by LilyandDaisy on Jul 24, 2020 16:16:20 GMT -8
I did miss that bit, sorry!
Paws could definitely go through 7mm mesh, and noses possibly.
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Post by Markpd on Jul 24, 2020 17:08:03 GMT -8
No probs Hmm, darn, I did a quick search on ebay for fan meshes instead, but only came up with fan filters (bar 1 in the US, and some in China!). I looked for just mesh instead, I could buy a sheet of 3.3mm A4 mesh for £8 (would do 2 fans), would that be small enough? Fancy measuring your Gerbils paws?
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Post by Markpd on Jul 25, 2020 7:03:40 GMT -8
The breeder just messaged me, she's got none atm after all, but says she will soon. Additionally she's not taking visits due to social distancing (I saw at least some rescue ctrs say the same), which I thought she might say. Not ideal, but can't do much about it, if it were a deal breaker who knows when things will be back to normal!??
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Post by LilyandDaisy on Jul 25, 2020 7:18:55 GMT -8
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Post by Markpd on Jul 25, 2020 7:42:09 GMT -8
Ah yes I did thanks , and I've expressed interest in those 2. What do you reckon to my mesh question?
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Post by LilyandDaisy on Jul 25, 2020 8:06:27 GMT -8
I think 3.3mm mesh would be ok. They could get a claw through if they wanted to, but gerbils explore things with their noses rather than their paws. I think you'll need to use the fans quite infrequently anyway.
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Post by Markpd on Jul 25, 2020 11:45:08 GMT -8
Yea agreed, and thanks , I'll order that (and I'm going to use the spare to protect the wiring). Oh and even if they get a claw through, the fan blades are set back in the housing slightly, so they won't reach it.
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Post by Markpd on Aug 5, 2020 16:28:52 GMT -8
Yes - I think the idea in that handbook is that demanding females stress neutered males out, which I can believe. When I looked on a German gerbil forum for experiences of neutered male and female pairs I found some people saying their pairs got on fine, and others saying the females were very controlling and the males were henpecked, which has been my experience. There were no reports of declanning though. While it seems that neutering gerbils has been done for some years (although more commonly recently), most threads I find are of the initial neutering surgery and perhaps the introduction, not of the aftermath. So you're left wondering what happened next. It's also confusing because when people say their pairs get along, I don't know what standard they are using. If your standard for "getting along" is not killing each other, then yes, my pair get along. But as was discussed in a recent thread, a pair doesn't have to be fighting to be getting along poorly. I don't know how much long term follow up rescues do, so when they say they have success with neutering males, I've no idea what that really means. Now any pair can have problems and declan, but at least with a straightforward same sex pair you will have lots of anecdotal evidence to draw on. An English contact I have in the rennmaus forum linked me to this article (by chance) from Austria about group dynamics, including neutered males, if it's right it doesn't bode well. I've no idea of the credentials of the author, but it makes an interesting read (translated from German). Thought you might be interested.
castration
In the case of small rodents, an operation is an extremely difficult and risky procedure that should only be carried out by a very experienced doctor. Unfortunately, many veterinarians still recommend this, but this is understandable for health reasons, because: As we already know, the animals identify themselves with the help of their smell. Not only without hormones is this invisible “identity” lost, but also its individual smell. As a result, they are often no longer recognized and rejected by their group members. You can no longer assign the neutered animals correctly, regardless of whether they are females or males. Castration of an adult mouse also does not change its behavior. If there are disputes among the animals, the hormonal balance is very rarely to blame, but the situation.This applies to both female and male animals. (Dispute over a new item, enclosure that is too small, etc.). The most sensible and best solution is to look for a new male partner for his male.
On a separate unrelated note :-
Behaviour and Social
The Mongolian gerbil, to which my page mainly relates, is a steppe dweller . The [German] name racing mouse [for gerbils], is very misleading because the animals actually come from steppes and semi-deserts . Running is not really her greatest hobby, she prefers to dig corridors and comes from the family of the "Wühler" . Put simply, its correct name would actually be "steppe vole" . That helps us better understand their needs. In the wild they live in large mixed groups in huge underground systems. Two groups often emerge from the large groups and do their work together. But because such a large, species-appropriate enclosure can never be provided and it would never be able to cope with the offspring, it is most sensible to keep 2 same-sex animals in animal husbandry . It doesn't matter how big the enclosure is, as this was unfortunately often spread. With 3 animals the whole thing is more critical : You can hardly believe it, but the little fellows have such complex social structures that only small disruptive factors can destroy the entire group. Unfortunately, gerbils often make short work of it. It ends in death if the mouse can't escape. It doesn't matter whether it's siblings or not, gerbils make no difference. As nice as the animals look, they can unfortunately also be brutal. Therefore, 2 animals are the best choice , as they have the lowest probability of a dispute.
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