Male/pup intro not going as planned

[Thelodar]

Everybody always says adult male to pup intros are a breeze. Well mine wanted to prove everyone wrong
Liam (adult) and Scotty (just turned 8 weeks old) have been in the split for 2 weeks. I tried introducing after one week but it wasn't great. Not awful, they didn't fight or anything, but Liam wanted nothing to do with Scotty. If Scotty tried to interact with him Liam would chase him off, sort of like he was trying to mount him, but his goal was just to shoo him away. I kept them together without the split for like three hours, but nothing improved, there was no grooming or sitting together. Liam obsessively dug in the corner (I eventually gave him some cardboard which he chewed up and then went back to corner digging) and ignored Scotty. If Scotty pestered him too much, he shooed him off. On there rare occasion that Laim did approach Scotty, Scotty seemed a bit scared and would push Liam's head down. I wasn't too worried at this point, figured they needed more time in the split. I tried again a few days later, just briefly, but it went exactly the same so I resplit again.

Then I tried today, the 2 week mark, and I think it went worse. Again, they're not out to kill each other, which is great, but I had problems from Scotty that I didn't have before. At first their behavior was similar to before, a little posturing when they interacted, some attempts to shoo Scotty off. Seemed like Liam was being a bit unfriendly. But then Liam pretty much ignored Scotty and started in on obsessive corner digging (he only does this during intros, not regularly. I'm thinking it may be anxiety based). He was actually fairly tolerant of Scotty sniffing his behind and being near him. But then Scotty started being very invasive and perhaps aggressive. He kept intensely sniffing Liam's rear end and may have taken a chomp on his tail (no blood...could have been attempting to groom it, not sure) and Liam reacted like it hurt and their was a minor scuffle (which I have on film). There were a few more times where Liam was digging and Scotty intensely sniffed his rear and even tried to crawl underneath him which caused issues. It almost seems like he's reacting poorly to the digging, like he thinks the kicks and whatnot are directed at him, or he doesn't like that Liam isn't paying attention to him when he's trying to interact. I don't know. But I felt the need to step in a few times, which did not happen during the other intro attempts.

Anyway, I'm getting worried that this is not going in the right direction. I'm not sure at what point I should give up on the pairing and just leave Liam by himself. He turns 3 next week, and did seem fine while by himself waiting for Scotty to grow up. I'd just rather avoid having to have four tanks in my room if I could lol. I should mention that on Friday I had to switch them to a different tank, and different split set up (went from a tank with a metal mesh divider to a cage in tank set up, which allows for more contact) because I needed the more protected split for my females. I moved all their bedding with them, but it may have caused a set back.

Anyone have a longer male adult/pup intro that still ended up okay? Any advice?

Here are the videos so you can see some of the behavior

These videos show Scotty being annoying, but Liam being fairly tolerant of him:
Video 3
Video 6
Video 7

These are the scuffles:
MVI_3394
MVI_3398

Liam checking out Scotty
Video 1

Liam chasing Scotty (this was more like the first time they were introduced)
Video 2

[betty]

Interesting - and that corner digging certainly looks anxiety/vice like like you said.

I certainly wouldn't say these were bad interactions at all - yes, they aren't ready to be left unsupervised, but nothing Liam is doing isn't what is normally seen in a pairing and Scotty is certainly looking happy for Liam to be the boss.

I did however have a blind gerbil and a stropyy gerbil who just didn't pick up on gerbil signs (both very god with people). It almost looks like Liam isn't too fussed about what gerbils do and how to be a leader - almost like he is here to dig and eat and if you want to stay with him, stop sniffing his butt and get on with your own digging.

However, sometimes if a non-leading gerbil wants direction but doesn't get any, that can sometimes be a problem. I remember feeling so sorry for the gerb I put in with my blind gerbil as she SO didn't care about anyone else but herself and they just had to put up with it!

Do you have plenty of time to watch them, as I would potentially leave them together with some other distractions for Liam (like a pile of hay of severla cardboard tubes to play with to get him out the corner) and maybe a temporary sand bath. I would be interested to see what he does when he isn't so obsessed with digging?

I certainly wouldn't give up if they were mine - but the sooner the better to get this done.

[Markpd]

Curious, just commenting only here as I'm pretty much a newb at Gerbils, but it looked to me like when a young kid wants to play with an older child, and the older one just isn't interested, it's like Scotty's 'pulling on his jumper' and saying 'me,me,me!', Liam is saying 'whateva'. If they were kids, I'd try giving them something they'd both be interested in doing, which I guess is along the lines of what betty is saying, anyway, just anthropomorphising here .

PS I liked watching the vids

[Thelodar]

Thank you both for the insight. I'm glad to hear you say that you think Scotty seems to be playing the submissive role. I was concerned that he might be challenging Liam a bit, but perhaps he is just being an annoying child. I definitely think I need to try and do something to ease Liam's anxiety during these intros, I think they are a big course of the problem. He was actually similar during the intro to Piper. When I tried to introduce them the first time I ended it because he repeatedly tried leaping out of the tank despite her leaving him be. But hormones took over eventually for that one. I can definitely try giving some distractions for the next attempt and see what happens with that. Liam is a BIG chewer, Scotty not as much, though he's doing more as he gets older.

[betty]

Yeah, chewing comes and goes for sure.

Maybe save up a zillions toilet rolls for the next intro - or try with that hay/straw if he'll chew anything?
Do keep us updated...

[Markpd]

Lol.

<--- envisions a tipper truck turning up at Thelodar's front door loaded with a zillion rolls,
driver "where d'ya want 'em mate?"
Thelodar "Can you leave your truck parked there for an hour? I've got an anxious Gerbil that'll soon get through them!"
Driver "...........do what mate??"
TBC

[Pim]

What kind of divider are you using? I had similar results with my first intro. I used a plexiglass divider and they didn't interact at all during the split. But my second try using a mesh divider went much better. I also like to use a towel instead of bedding during the intro, but I don't know if that would solve the problem or not.

[Thelodar]

It was a metal wire divider, 1/4", down the center of a 20 gallon long. Now they're in a slightly smaller tank with a cage inside. They definitely can have more contact in this set up, but I'm not sure it's helping.

[Thelodar]

Just wanted to update. I tried another intro the day after the one above, using lots of cardboard and hay to distract. It went okay for a while because Liam could simply move away from Scotty if he bothered him, abandoning what he was chewing and going to another equally attractive thing to chew. He didn't feel the need to stand his ground. I saw Liam groom Soctty for the first time, though it was quite rough and had Scotty squeaking. BUT in the end it didn't solve the issue of them just not liking each other very much lol. They eventually devolved into frequent minor squabbles and I resplit.

I'm trying again today. Using lots of cardboard, hay, scattered treats, and a wheel. They've been together an hour and it's going better than previous attempts. Liam is being very well behaved thus far, though still not showing the love lol. Direct interactions are still a bit tense. Scotty still does some stupid stuff (he's overly interested in sniffing Liam's ear which actually makes me worried about Liam's ear...I hope he hasn't got a tumor or something) but I'm more successful in distracting him than I was before. I'm hoping Scotty's issue is just some insecurity and he'll calm down with exposure. Part of me worries that being a singleton raised with a single mother may have left him with social issues. The wheel's helpful because Scotty's never seen one before so he's very curious but will also back away from Liam if he's using it.

So fingers crossed. If it fails today I am planning on separating them for good. Liam will be left alone and I'd try another pup with Scotty. Liam's 3 years old now and I'm not liking the idea of him spending months and months in a split. I'll just give my bedroom over to the gerbils lol. The females I'm splitting better work out or I'm going to need new furniture to hold all the tanks. I could return the female pups to the breeder but I am quite attached.

[Thelodar]

I think I'm going to call it quits. Although there was less squabbling than previous attempts, it's mainly just because Scotty gave Liam more space. Liam wants nothing to do with Scotty. Liam's been sleeping for a little bit and Scotty keeps trying to join him (comes in politely with some head grooming) and Liam postures and chases him off each time.

[betty]

Oh dear - this sometimes happens - and if you aren't happy to progress - then it needs to come to an end.

You really gave it a good try though - but perhaps their characters just don't match up. I sometimes wonder why some gerbils almost seem to demand attention from a (what we perceive to be) a grumpy other gerbil? I had one do ot before - and I was like - just leave him alone will you!!!!

Well, now you are all set up for a split - this next one should be easy!