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Post by alen78 on Aug 1, 2020 4:55:46 GMT -8
Hello,
I'm buying my first gerbils. I have a cage (used in past for a hamster), and a glass aquarium (used in past for fishes). I would use them for my first gerbils (i would easily connect the cage and the aquarium, the cage wouth be on top of the aquarium, with bridges and stairs leading to it). The sizes are:
Cage: 79 x 49 x 37 (centimeters) or 31.1 x 19.3 x 14.5 (inches) Aquarium: 60 x 30 x 30 (centimeters) or 23.6 x 11.8 x 11.8 (inches)
If I'm using the converter right, it would be 37 gallons for the cage and 13 gallons for the aquarium, so 50 gallons in total. I would fill the aquarium only with bedding, all the rest (wheel, house, water bottle, plate with food, toys...) would be in the cage (because it's 3 times bigger). Does this setting looks ok for you? And it's that ok for 4 gerbils or is better if I take only 2 or 3?
I had pets in past, but never gerbils, so better ask.
Thank you in advance for your help.
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Post by betty on Aug 1, 2020 5:38:02 GMT -8
Hello alen78 - and welcome to the world of gerbils! Your tank and cage 'topper' sounds like the best combo for gerbils - and sounds like it would be quite an adaptation! Main concerns would be the interface between the tank and topper as it needs to be very well ventilated, but of course it isn't great to have gerbils walking on bars or wire - so make sure you have a good think about that that surface would look like - especially as your topper is bigger all round than the tank - so needs probably a solid think outer frame for the topper to sit on with the ventilation part in the middle. Gerbils will poop and pee on smooth wood if they get the chance - so just make sure the solid 'frame' you use is either waterproof (and safe to be chewed) or easily swap-overable with a fresh one (swollen wood and gerbil pee can eventually start to smell bad). Also worth considering is the ramps within the giant topper - they need to be safe and not too steep, but also not too long - we don't want gerbils falling from a height in here. Gerbils can use ladders quite easily, but do be aware of the risks of these with slips and falls and the difficulty pups and older gerbils with have using them - especially if the only source of food or water is right at the top. You have some great scope for the set up with this size topper - but just think about how you can use the space most safely for the gerbils and most cost-effective and accessible for you. Having solid shelves is great for their feet (or bendy bridges laid over the wires/bars), but often makes the topper darker; and having a big door in the topper level with a shelf helps you interact with them more easily and clean out the topper too. How exciting! Oh and as for numbers of gerbils - a related pair of gerbils that are the same age is always more stable out of pairs/trios/quads (unless the trio/quad are males and/or with their father) - so that is what I always recommend, but obviously if you find a trio anywhere already together - don't take a pair and leave the single. Just take the trio and hope they stay stable. Similarly, if there are 4 young gerbils already together, don't take a trio - leave a pair for the next person. However, it would probably be best size-wise for you to look for a pair anyway - and ideally no more than a trio, because many gerbil groups will say it is the volume of the tank that is the most important when calculating size (the topper is just a bonus) mainly because a gerbil is born to dig and that is where they will spend most of their time.
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Post by alen78 on Aug 1, 2020 5:53:40 GMT -8
Thank you very much for your help Betty, I appreciate it and I will consider all you wrote! As those will be my first gerbils, I will study them as much I can from the start, and make any possible modifications in their new enviroment, especially if I see that there is a risk of them falling from the cage in the aquarium. I have a setting already in my head, but maybe I'm wrong, until I see the gerbils inside it I cannot be sure. So modifications are always possible.
The gerbils will all be males, I would like 4 of them (brothers), but I'm not sure if cage/aquarium is enough for them, last thing I would want is to see them fight for space! I'm still not sure what is the better option, 2,3 or 4?
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Post by betty on Aug 2, 2020 1:18:46 GMT -8
They don't usually fall off edges in their normal every days things, but they can bolt for cover when they see shadows or they get spooked by something - and we do hear or broken tails and feet sometimes on here - so although covering them isn't what everyone does, it is certainly something to consider once you see them and how they act.
Hopefully others will comment too on numbers, but related males are much better for stable clans if you want more than 2 gerbils for your first clan.
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Post by Markpd on Aug 3, 2020 1:16:58 GMT -8
When I bought my Gerbils yesterday, the breeder offered me the other 2 brothers too, I was so tempted!! , but I stuck to the plan to just get a couple of brothers, I'm (effectively) a new Gerbil owner too, and wanted to keep the chance of de-clanning to a minimum. Would've been fun to see the mayhem that 4 brothers would of caused though! lol
betty et al
I guess this is asking how long is a bit of string, but care to guesstimate how much more likely 4 brothers will fall out vs 2 over their life?
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Post by jal on Aug 3, 2020 3:39:27 GMT -8
I've very little recent experience but would probably advise against multiple males for new owners just from hearing anecdotes. I have had declans with female pairs of siblings many years ago (but never with pairs of males in similar setups) so maybe I'm a bit too wary though!
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Post by betty on Aug 3, 2020 4:54:42 GMT -8
If the males were ALL sibling litter mates and had been as a foursome since taken from their parents and the enclosure was a one-piece and a decent size and the stuff in their tank was never shared with any other gerbils (and they never sniffed a female gerbil or spent more than a few hours apart or any got ill or died) - then they should have every chance of staying together happily for ever.
However, you can't guarantee anything - especially if one of them got ill or had an accident - so there is always a tiny risk down the line. It might no be until they are 3 years old even - but it could always happen.
I had 8 males together one time - from different litters and hence different ages. They had (what I thought anyway) was a GREAT two years in their 6 foot long and very deep tank and the topper before the first declan. So, as a rookie at the time, I split into a 5 (still in the big tank) and 3 with the injured guy (in a new tank). But 6 months later, the 5 had another declan (down to a 3 and 2) but then a month later the 2 of that clan had a declan. So now I'm on to 4 tanks.
Then the original 3 had a declan so now I am all over the place. Nightmare.
I know it's a big example, but it showed me that the gerbils have their own heirachy, and trying to second guess it after a declan isn't always possible. 2/3/4 gerbils are only stable in a clan if they were only ever in that clan. Dividing down back to that number afterwards didn't go to well for me. Might have worked better if their colours were more easy to track, but once you have more than one agouti - no chance.
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Post by Markpd on Aug 3, 2020 5:06:39 GMT -8
Wow! That is a big group, must of been great fun watching the mayhem they caused! (before the de-clanning nightmare!). Re for a 4 group, that's a lot of 'ifs', I know in my case they are 4 brothers, but I thought I'd better learn to walk before I run! Maybe next time though
Oh btw, as for identifying different same colour Gerbils, Eva Wablinger et al did this by shaving different (small) patterns on them! Not practical long term, but could be used to identify an aggressor or victim through a de-clan.
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Post by betty on Aug 3, 2020 5:23:16 GMT -8
The thing is - you can put together any combination of gerbils and a few of the things from the list I gave and they may be fine - it really is sometimes a personal thing.
Scents of other gerbils are the worst offenders (or lack of their own scent in a less stable group) but many people have kept many combinations and have had a good few years. It is sometimes just bad luck.
All the things I mentioned in the list can trigger a declan though - so all are best avoided - however that doesn't mean that people can't try dofferent things. Gerbils, or course, aren't born or always kept in exact litter-mate pairs for various reasons including previous declans - so we always have to just work with what we have.
Which is where we learn so much from.
And yes, I have also used the clipping method now and again when I needed to identify one short term - usually a specific pup or one with medication - but wouldn't recommend it for anything long term as it isn't really needed permanently.
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Post by alen78 on Aug 3, 2020 16:11:29 GMT -8
Thank you for the answers guys/girls! In a few days I will get my first gerbils, but I must admit I'm still not sure if I should get 4 or less. After a long thinking I've decided not to put the cage (37 gallons) on top of the aquarium (13 gallons), but to put them one near the other and connect them with hamster tubes. I KNOW that those are not recommended because made of plastic, hopefully they will not chew them if I put them a lot of wood items to chew in their enviroment. The thing that worries me if the aquarium is too small? I know it would be way too small if that was the ONLY dwelling for them, but there is also the bigger cage (with a wooden 29 cm diameter wheel, a big house of wood - all 4 could be inside without any problem, wooden bridges, wooden toys, a sand bowl, a food plate, a water bottle and so on). So the small 13 gallon tank would be used only for burrowing/digging purpose (I would put only bedding inside and some wooden tunnels at the bottom). In total there are 50 gallons, and that is clearly more then enough for 4 gerbils. But do you think that the 13 gallon tank would make them feel claustrophobic? As I said I really want 4 gerbils (and those would be all male brothers, I've already found them) but I want to be sure I'm doing it right. Those would be my first gerbils and all I know on gerbils is what I've read online in the last 3 weeks. Ok, I've learned A LOT, but I prefer ask those questions to someone with a real experience with gerbil pets. If needed I could buy a bigger aquarium (29 gallons), but I've read if there is too much space (in that case the total cage+tank would be 66 gallons), that could be lead to territorial fights and faster declans. So do you think that the setup I have (37 gallons cage with all the needed stuff inside + 13 gallon tank only filled with bedding) is good enough or I should go for the 37+29 option (with a risk of territorial fights in future)? I prefer the first option but I want to hear what you all think. I still have 2-3 days to decide and I want to be 100% sure I will not make some huge mistake at the start of my gerbil campaign.
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Post by Markpd on Aug 3, 2020 16:49:48 GMT -8
Personally I don't have any real experience with Gerbils yet (the pair I've got now I got Sunday, and previous to that was 32yrs ago! lol), but I have been doing a lot of reading over the past couple of months whilst furloughed! I've found nothing so far to back up the idea that too big a cage can cause de-clanning in of itself (aside from what's in the FAQ here, and a few members), Eva Waiblinger herself said it is not proven that large cages cause de-clanning. And in Germany, Austria and Switzerland their recommended minimums are w-a-y over the so called 10 US gall/Gerbil max (Austria is the smallest with 53 US gallon for a pair). Additionally a bunch of rescue ctrs here in the UK and some breeders (US and UK) state that bigger is better (I'm building a list atm). What can cause de-clanning (amongst many things) though is having separate compartments which can be easily defended, e.g a separate tank with tubes going to it! Especially if their is only 1 entrance. If you could somehow have a topper which joined the 2, and so have a much more open connection between them, maybe that would work?? But TBH I don't know on that point, I defer to the more experienced keepers for that. Oh, and apparently a sudden large change in cage space can cause de-clanning, so if that's happening maybe don't fully open up the cage at 1st, afraid I can't give you details about that atm as I'm new to this point.
Btw, with plastic tubes, I don't know what make you use, but Rotastak used to supply stainless steel rings that go on the end of the tubes that mostly stopped the damage (their would be some on the inside of the ring on the tube, but as long as it didn't go far up enough for the ring to fall off, it didn't matter). That said, it's rather academic due to the access issue I mentioned above. Sounds like the 29 gallon tank would be a good answer for you
Oh, you might find this interesting, it's a Gerbil handbook by the Swiss animal welfare, written in part (at least) by Eva Waiblinger last year (I've translated it from German, it's not perfect, but it's way better than the original Google translate job! ), theirs a section on cage sizes, as well as many other things.
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Pim
Member
Posts: 346
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Post by Pim on Aug 4, 2020 12:45:52 GMT -8
I definitely do not recommend joining the cage with tubes. As Markpd said it risks declanning when there is a clear separation between spaces. If you are choosing between 4 gerbils Don't take three since that would leave one loner. I recommend 2 since these are your first. When you first get gerbils there is a lot to handle. You need to tame them if they aren't already and that can be more difficult when you have more than two. Your also learning behaviors and body language for the first time so you wouldn't be able to catch a declan as quickly if one did arise. I would recommend just using the cage as it has plenty of space for a pair! Good luck and welcome!
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Post by alen78 on Aug 4, 2020 13:11:01 GMT -8
I definitely do not recommend joining the cage with tubes. As Markpd said it risks declanning when there is a clear separation between spaces. If you are choosing between 4 gerbils Don't take three since that would leave one loner. I recommend 2 since these are your first. When you first get gerbils there is a lot to handle. You need to tame them if they aren't already and that can be more difficult when you have more than two. Your also learning behaviors and body language for the first time so you wouldn't be able to catch a declan as quickly if one did arise. I would recommend just using the cage as it has plenty of space for a pair! Good luck and welcome! I'm afraid that my cage is not good enough for gerbils, because it has only 15 cm of bottom (where bedding can be put), above of those 15 cm are the bars. That's not enough bedding (and most of it would be thrown outside from the gerbils). I also have a very big wheel (29 cm diameter) that basically goes from the bottom to the top of the cage. So it also stays in the bedding area. I could separate it from the bedding with some wooden obstacle(s), but that would make the bedding area even smaller. I don't think that gerbils would be happy with so little bedding, even if I take only two of them.
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Pim
Member
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Post by Pim on Aug 4, 2020 13:27:09 GMT -8
I'm afraid that my cage is not good enough for gerbils, because it has only 15 cm of bottom (where bedding can be put), above of those 15 cm are the bars. That's not enough bedding (and most of it would be thrown outside from the gerbils). Then I would recommend just going with the 29 gallon. I've used my 29 gal for pairs before and it works great!
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Post by alen78 on Aug 6, 2020 0:01:39 GMT -8
People, I need a quick suggestion! It looks I will not take 4 gerbils, some problems arised. Now I have only 2 options: -Get 2 male gerbils that are 6 months old. They lived the last 5 months in the pet shop (I live in a country where gerbils are not an usual pet, 99% of the population never heard of them...that's why those 2 were not sold all that time). -Get 3 younger sisters (not sure how young those are, but are still with the breeder, so cannot be too old). I've read that female gerbils are much prone to declans, especially if more then 2. Of course I cannot devide them and take only 2. What would you suggest? I prefer younger gerbils, that were not in one enviroment (the pet shop) all this time (a sudden change of enviroment could be risky), but on the other hand, females could be risky (my experience is based only on what I've read online). What would you do? I will decide based on your answers and suggestions. Thank you in advance.
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