Advice about possible stroke followed by sisters fighting

[romy]

sorry if the subject is confusing but i’m not sure how else to describe it in a short title!

i have four female gerbs (mum & 3 daughters) the three daughters are just under 1 year. one of the daughters appeared to have some sort of stroke last night and her health declined rapidly, her legs were dragging and she kept “stretching” and falling onto her side/back. she was then lethargic for a few hours with laboured breathing.

weirdly but much to our joy she bounced back (we were not expecting this!) and she seems to be back to normal now, however i had to have her and her mum & 2 sisters split caged overnight because when i put one of her sisters in with her into her “sick tank” the sister kept attacking the poorly gerb, chasing her violently around the cage, trying to mount her etc. there were no bites that drew blood or any injuries from this. so they were split caged overnight (poorly gerb on one side and the other 3 in the other side) the attacking gerb and poorly gerb seemed to keep biting at each other through the split cage through the night until they all went to bed on opposite sides of the cage.

also i checked last night and the other two gerbs (mum& other sister) are fine with poorly gerb, no fighting.

so today: i put mum in the side with poorly gerb, all was well, she groomed poorly gerb &she seemed so much happier to have some company. i kept an eye on them for a good hour or two to make sure no fights occurred, and all was well. i decided to test poorly gerb with her two sisters, so i put her in the other side with everyone together, and no fighting. poorly gerb went straight to the “nest” of the other 3 and settled in, with her two sisters. the attacking gerb gave her and her other sister a good groom and didn’t fight or try to kick her from the nest.

it’s been around 20 mins and still no fights, no thumping or any problems so far. i just want some advice and to know if this is a good sign? does it sound like they’ve resolved whatever problems? has this happened to anyone else ? i’m a very anxious person and i am always overly cautious with my pets so even if all * seems * well i will still worry lol. so any advice or words of wisdom would be appreciated .

also apologies if this is in the wrong section of the forum!

[betty]

Hello romy and what a frightening thinkg to have happened for your little ones.

Sounds like it could easily have been a stroke or something else that was causing her severe pain - and quite often family members do pester each other while they are acting strangely - so that too was totally normal.

The fact that you split them together probably was a smart move as they stayed in contact but you were able to protect her - and now it looks like for now they are all back together with mum sending out the good vibes for everyone to behave.

As long as mum can keep control and the changes in the poorly girl haven't made anything too different, they may well be fine.

Obviously, females are notoriously fickle at friendships, so I wouldn't change anything around for a while if it was me; no new toys or anything that could involve another shift in the clan - but then I am always over cautious myself.


Option two - either now if you are worried or if you start to see trouble - would be to split into two pairs. Still not an easy thing as you won't know the status of the quad and therefore which ones would settle best together. You could assume that mum was number 1 for sure; and you may assume that the one who was attacking the poorly one was number two and so leave her with the final girl and put the mum and poorly together.

Although I never like to predict ANYTHING with females without having seen them in action for a while - so it may be that you are the best judge of what to do with them right now while they are all still fine together - and then go with the changes if and when they happen?

[romy]

Aug 2, 2020 7:18:41 GMT -8 betty said:

Hello romy and what a frightening thinkg to have happened for your little ones.

Sounds like it could easily have been a stroke or something else that was causing her severe pain - and quite often family members do pester each other while they are acting strangely - so that too was totally normal.

The fact that you split them together probably was a smart move as they stayed in contact but you were able to protect her - and now it looks like for now they are all back together with mum sending out the good vibes for everyone to behave.

As long as mum can keep control and the changes in the poorly girl haven't made anything too different, they may well be fine.

Obviously, females are notoriously fickle at friendships, so I wouldn't change anything around for a while if it was me; no new toys or anything that could involve another shift in the clan - but then I am always over cautious myself.


Option two - either now if you are worried or if you start to see trouble - would be to split into two pairs. Still not an easy thing as you won't know the status of the quad and therefore which ones would settle best together. You could assume that mum was number 1 for sure; and you may assume that the one who was attacking the poorly one was number two and so leave her with the final girl and put the mum and poorly together.

Although I never like to predict ANYTHING with females without having seen them in action for a while - so it may be that you are the best judge of what to do with them right now while they are all still fine together - and then go with the changes if and when they happen?

thank you for the reply! unfortunately it didn’t last long and my poorly girl was attacked again by her sister. so i’m keeping them 2/2 in split cage so no one is alone. it’s been over 12 hours and they all seem to be doing fine in their pairs.

i also don’t think it was a stroke,i think my poorly girl is epileptic as i saw a video of the same problem my girl was having and it was confirmed epileptic. she is also having some jerky movements/staring off for a while. i will take her to the vet tomorrow and try and get something for her to help with these potential seizures, and prepare another cage just in case i can’t get all the girls back together again

[betty]

I don't think there is a commonly-given treatment for epilepsy in gerbils unfortunately - but I am sure someone will correct me if I am wrong. I haven't ever asked a vet about it or seen anything online specifically so have always assumed there wasn't?

That leg stretching and falling over you described is usually thought of as a stroke by most people, (or severe pain; or neurological problems including infections and strokes) - although now I am typing this, we don't often actually pin these things down with vets and have the exact results back each time. So many gerbils do actually have epilepsy (it is one of the main reasons why they became so commonly kept as lab animals) that many vets often assume this as the go-to.

Stretching like that has nearly always been assumed to be internal pain (and/or labor) and falling over is usually associated with something neurological - but as said above, most owners don't or aren't able to get definitive testing done on gerbils at the vets. It also goes away quite quickly (in virtually cases) so is very rarely followed up by the owners or vets either way.

If anyone has any actual test results or links to articles from vet studies about this (not just anecdotal vet opinions) - they would be very useful to share on here to have us all up to date.

I might have a quick read around myself...

[betty]

First up - it appears as though epilepsy can't be tested for without a brain scan - so I am sure most vets wouldn't or couldn't perform that on a gerbil.

And treatments (in humans) appears to be either medication; surgery; insertion of devic; or, keto diet. So in gerbils, it isn't looking hopeful (3 out of 4 options gone straight away) - but as they are USED for research - this could actually be one of the only animals that vets have access to decent data for?

Oh, I could lose an afternoon with this...

[betty]

Looks like - at first glance - that there is no test for a stroke either.

There are however blood tests that can test for things that 'could' have caused a stroke - so at least there is that if your vet was willing - or you were persistent enough to try

Obviously, if your gerbil is left with any permanent physical symptoms, this can help a vet offer futher steps - like if they are still leaning, spinning or falling over - a course of antibiotics would most likely clear up an ear infection (the usual cause of leaning, spinning or falling over) so if it doesn't clear up, that leaves less it could be.


I really wish I was good enough at maths to have become a vet...

[Markpd]

Maths for a vet?? Weird!

Lol at losing an afternoon, yea I know exactly what you mean!
I did find and briefly scan through a research paper that was talking about the possible causes of Gerbils epilepsy, some mention of glutamate levels being low in them, but I didn't read the paper properly. But they are out there for a spare afternoon!