Post by Shooting Star on Dec 20, 2020 11:19:40 GMT -8
I don't think a mock self fox would be doable with our current spotting genes and modifiers. You can get Tuxedo selfs with just Mottled modifiers (no Dom Spot), that have white on paws and a bit on the belly. But as far as I know, if you keep upping the Mott modifiers to extend the belly white, you start getting head and neck spots just like you would on a regular Spotted. I don't think there's a way at present to get a full white belly without topside spotting. I would certainly love for a Tan gene to appear in gerbils so we could make real foxes, though!
I haven't looked though is the at gene the same cause in guinea pigs or hae we got a chance of an entirely new gene in gerbs???
I'm actually not familiar with at in guinea pigs (or most GP genetics). I know it in mice; not sure how it compares to GPs, but generally if they decide to use the same gene symbol then it largely works the same/has the same effect. We might not ever get at in gerbils, or at least not in our lifetimes (mice have so many mutations because they've been bred in large numbers for centuries, after all). But it's something we know is possible in rodents (and other species like dogs), so it's more likely than, say, polka-dots. We might get something that's never been seen in mice instead (though there's so much in mice that it would be unlikely it had *never* occurred). Another A-locus possibility would be Agouti with an Agouti belly. That's the default for mice and rats, but they have a mutation for white-bellied Agouti (Aw) that's relatively common in wild populations, at least with mice. Gerbils are the opposite, with their default being the white-bellied Agouti, but it would be possible for an Agouti-bellied Agouti to pop up.
Thanks for that Shooting Star - always good to know what things are and how they work in other species.
And I wonder why the agouti-bellied mice are the norm then - so weird. Most wild mice are the white-bellied aren't they so how did that flip? So does the A symbol represent the dominant solid belly then or would they be co-dominant or have some other no-standard inheritance? Just tihnking out loud - I will have to look it up now. And did that gene flip so much earlier in gerbils that the original is now lost. Weird to think how it came about?
Also, strange that the two species we chose to be 'fancy rats' and 'fancy mice' both have this reverted pattern - and is different to virtually all other agouti-colured mammals - old and new world. I wonder if it conferred some kind of behavioural pattern that was linked to them becoming the 'first' pets?
How very interesting. I never really thought of the standard rodent-like mammal to be anything else but two-tone?
I also just found out because of this (according to wikipedia) that harvest mice are in the 'rat' branch of the family. Wow.
There's not really anything new that I'm aware of. There were supposed to be a number of Underwhite (uw) gerbils coming into the US from a retiring Canadian breeder, but that was just before the border shut down, so they're kind of still in limbo in Canada. There's currently a rather neat looking tricolored gerbil in Malaysia; it's most likely a somatic mutation (not heritable), but he's still a pup, so there's no breeding data yet and it could still turn out to be heritable. If you want to keep up with/catch up on the latest, I run the Just Gerbil Genetics facebook group: www.facebook.com/groups/886015181478604
There is (was?) a Wavy gene. It's recessive, and it's the one that was having problems with eye pustules (which were on the eyelids, not the surface of the eye itself). To my knowledge, no Rex gerbils that were not from Wavy lines ever had that particular issue. I'm not sure if anyone is still working with Wavy, or it was simply allowed to die out because of the eye issues. Wavy is/was rather interesting, because there was a satiny sheen to some of them, but there were other health problems as well that they were never able to breed out.
I have these gerbils! Currently breeding as much underwhite (uw, creams/azure) and dilutes in separate lines (I had to put my colourpoints on hold for this because I didn't have the space to do both) so that these populations can come into the US as soon as the borders open up again. The uw creams are really pretty (to me) and almost satiny in coat quality. I really like them and am trying to see if I can combine the uwd/uw and chm genes to see what the azure looks like in a colourpoint. Eventually. Also trying to get darker feet on siamese, but that might have to wait.
Thanks for sharing - and would love to know more about what the colours are being called and how a 'new' genetic combo gets its name anyway?
And how come the uw gene makes the coat more satiny? Is the structure of the hair different or is it just the way it reflects the light?
Also, would be interested to know how you are trying to get darker feet in your Siamese. Would that be through experimentation with different recessives being present or absent in the individuals - or more phenotypically over the generations?
Post by Rockstar Gerbil Clan on Mar 19, 2021 10:15:15 GMT -8
For the siamese: I recently picked up a buck from Moonstone who has a wild-caught lines with particularly dark feets - they have black footpads - I haven't been able to reproduce this in his offspring yet but I'm hopeful. I think KJ has been using these guys to make the Himalayan gerbil, so there's some work done there and they're really cool. Worth checking out she may have pics on her website. Otherwise I'm trying to choose animals with as dark points as possible and ones that darken quickly as youngsters. Siamese is being a problem because there's a lot of white in my lines, and I'm trying to get the marks off the feet. I have some lovely burmeses as well, so just mostly it's picking and choosing the breeding animals with those traits in mind.
As for the uw creams? I'm not sure, I have a RESN guy who is a similar kind of creamy colour, but I don't know if it's the tone produced by the uw that makes it look a bit more like a cremello horse coat to me? Maybe I'm just in love with it and a bit crazy, but it looked a little bit more glossy than my other smooth coated gerbils. (Other than my blacks). I did do some research on shiny satin like coats in mice and horses and often it's caused by a hollow hair shaft or a hair shaft that has very little pigment in it so they reflect back light more strongly. Since satin coats exist in mice, I am somewhat hopeful that maybe one day that mutation will develop in gerbils. But who knows!
Thanks - I will have a lot at that site as couldn't find anything about the project on a quick glance.
As for the uw - yes, I suppose you would almost need to start with pure lines (or test breed to clear your lines) so you know who has got what from the get-go. Just pairing with anyone might not give you a full picture of the recessives at play.
Did you ever go into detail on your reseach to see if the satin coat in mice/hamsters/horses has an intermediary gene - so not quite full satin - but a gene that creates a mid-way point instead? Not sure if anyone has looked into the biological structure of the uw gene for sure which may or may not back up your visuals?
Post by Shooting Star on Mar 20, 2021 18:21:18 GMT -8
I'm glad to hear an update on the uw-creams! The dilutes too, I had some in that batch.
There's definitely a satin appearance to the underwhites-- the provisional name for the basic uw color was actually "satin". All the common satin phenotypes in rodents that I know of involve a hollow hair-shaft; I've not heard of any semi-satin phenotypes, but a mock-satin could conceivably be produced by some other mechanism.
I see I haven't actually written about my own projects yet, lol. I have the lion's share of the WFNZ (wild-line) gerbils in the US, which I'm using both to continue the WFNZ phenotype and to create better Himalayans. Not much progress on the Himalayans yet as my backcrosses have yielded mostly Agouti, but those Agouti are proving interesting. I'm seeing two distinct Agouti phenotypes: Type A has what I think of as WFNZ traits (heavy ticking, white areas are more yellow, dark paw skin), while Type B is more golden, with much lighter ticking and paw skin.
One cross has produced what I assume is a Type B pup (still young, not sure how it will mature) that looks almost Dilute! I checked the eyes, and there's no reduction in eye pigment, so Dilute is not the culprit.
Wow - how interesting. That pups tails really shows the difference there.
Also, like you said on the adults there - the demarcation on the B type is so clear and distinct it almost looks 'higher' than on the A (as the yellowing blurs the divide).
What was it that proved it wasn't satin. Was it based purely on being the second allele to uwd - or could it be a hair structure change as well? I am not familiar with hollow hairs - will have to do some more reading...
Post by Shooting Star on Mar 21, 2021 6:10:12 GMT -8
True Satin (hollow hairs) has a very distinct look, and is not associated with any particular color. It's a coat structure mutation like Rex. The fact that the satin-esque look of uw-creams occurs only on uwuw combos means that it's due to either the uw mutation itself (most likely) or a *very* strongly linked second mutation. I haven't done any reading on Satin or Underwhite recently, so I couldn't say more than that.