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Post by Markpd on Sept 27, 2020 9:06:23 GMT -8
Hey all, I've called her Parsnip (previously I've had Pickle, Peanut, Pepper, Pancake and Peach as pets, I'm super original!) and I'm happy to say she is still doing fantastic. After the first day I haven't seen her afraid once, she is constantly trying to climb out and explore everywhere, has a huge appetite, is running on her wheel a lot and loves hopping on my hand already. The only weird thing is that she hardly ever chews, she hasn't touched the carton and nibbled on hay and wood very briefly. Tomorrow we are picking up another pup and I'm so excited to see them together. I really hope the pairing goes well. They are from the same breeder one week apart, do you think I still have to quarantine them? They will probably even be from the same nest. I was going to get an 80 gallon tank tomorrow and I just read a ton of threads about how a big cage is not a good idea for a pair. I researched gerbils to bits before my first pair but it never occurred to me to research if a cage can be too big. Atm I have a 25 gallon but I can barely fit anything in it as it's got platforms. And a very small split tank (9 gallon I think). Will something slightly bigger be ok like 35 to 40gallon? (For example 75*40*50cm) There are platforms but they are wide and there won't be any narrow bridges etc. In my opinion from everything I've read (I have little experience) from various sources like researchers (e.g Eva Waiblinger), and organisations like the swiss animal welfare, The Veterinary Association for Animal Welfare (in Germany, aka TVT)), various breeders here in the UK and the US, various animal charities in the UK. And that in Germany, Austria and Switzerland their minimum cage recommendation is way beyond the so called max cage size of 10 gallons per Gerbil (66 US Gallons for Germany), and I haven't come across anything suggesting that they suffer high rates of declanning to date.
Tbh I think the whole idea about large cages in of itself causing declanns is a misconception (we really need to edit the FAQ IMO), declans can be caused by a multitude of reasons, and sometimes it's not possible to pin down what triggered it. I do think it's possible that a sudden big change in cage size might cause de-clanning, so if you wanted to be extra safe, get the big cage you want but section off some of it initially so you eliminate or reduce that possibility. Once they've settled in a bit, open the cage a bit more. Btw, in the various reading you did re cage sizes, did you see any links to external sources where they discussed the big cage declanning theory? (I am trying to read sources that support that theory too, but other than the FAQ here, 1 US breeder here, 1 US website of whom the owner found the info from a Gerbil forum (maybe here), I can't find anything to support their claim, although I haven't finished looking yet).
So I say, go for it, get the big 80gall tank so they can have the extra digging and running room . Oh and mind you don't create sections in a tank that can be easily blocked off by a single Gerbil, that can cause declanning.
JFYI I have a big tank for my Gerbils (not quite had them 2mths), it's 120x50x50, 79 US gallons, 66 UK gallons, 300 lts.
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Post by gerbilord on Sept 27, 2020 10:25:01 GMT -8
I recently upgraded my gerbils cage to a much larger cage than they were in, despite them having seen some behavioural issues in the past. So far, they are getting on better than they were in their tiny cage. This might not be the case for every gerbil pair ever, but seeing them so much happier in a large space, I'd always recommend as big as possible, with a minimum of ~80 x 40cm purely for their wellbeing.
Personally, I think 20 gallon is too small, 30 - 40 gallon is so much better and you can fit so many more toys in so you can always spoil them. And 80 gallons would be heaven for gerbils - imagine the running they could do! (If you're introducing them to such a big space just make sure suitable measures are in place to prevent declans by e.g. only letting them into some of the space at first - I forgot to do this but this evidently made them stressed from the vast amount of space they had, or adding in old bedding at least 3-4 weeks old).
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Post by nixee on Sept 27, 2020 11:07:25 GMT -8
I ended up going for the 75*40*50cm, the other one was 75*40*100 with 4 platforms and I would have to put up a lot of narrow bridges so I was worried one of them would be defending them.
It's very interesting that cage size recommendations vary so much for gerbils, they seem to be more clear cut for other rodents. I live in the Netherlands so most of my research has been in dutch.
The minimum size here is 100*50 surface area (including platforms) for 2 gerbils, and 20-25% extra for each additional gerbil. And minimum 25cm substrate, but preferably 40cm. And 30cm height above the substrate. I've never seen anything about maximum size.
So that's around 72G min which is obviously crazy different than the sizes in the US. Though to be fair there are breeders here recommending 25G. The 72 is from animal care/vet tech books, government animal prorection (like RSPCA) and a commonly very trusted website. To be honest I was quite shocked to see 20G or sometimes even 10G being recommended on some US sites. 20 seems okay but I can barely fit any toys, wheels etc in it and 10 I can't even imagine.
A bigger cage makes more sense to me if you have room for the length and width but bigger in height being divisive to the gerbils sounds logical, though I have no personal experience with it. Also I was worried when they get older they would fall from the top platforms.
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Post by nixee on Sept 27, 2020 11:11:40 GMT -8
Also quick update, today went a lot better, no throwing themselves at the bars like wild bats 😆 Turnip (new pup) is keeping more distance than Parsnip, but they've had a lot of kisses and sat next to the divider chewing hay together or grooming a few times.
They destroy each other's nest but then do sleep in the same spot. I've moved their nest to next to the divider and so far they have stayed in it and not moved it away again.
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Post by LilyandDaisy on Sept 28, 2020 1:00:39 GMT -8
I think in the Netherlands you have those glass enclosures with the sliding doors? Like this A lot of those glass enclosures do seem much too segmented for gerbils really. 80 gallons as a long tank with one single space is fine I think, but as a tall tank with lots of separate levels, probably not. I agree with gerbilord that some gerbils argue less in bigger tanks too. I think some pairs just wind each other up in a small space. They need a bit of time to get away from each other. Good to hear they are making progress in the split cage.
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Post by Markpd on Sept 28, 2020 10:22:10 GMT -8
I ended up going for the 75*40*50cm, the other one was 75*40*100 with 4 platforms and I would have to put up a lot of narrow bridges so I was worried one of them would be defending them. It's very interesting that cage size recommendations vary so much for gerbils, they seem to be more clear cut for other rodents. I live in the Netherlands so most of my research has been in dutch. The minimum size here is 100*50 surface area (including platforms) for 2 gerbils, and 20-25% extra for each additional gerbil. And minimum 25cm substrate, but preferably 40cm. And 30cm height above the substrate. I've never seen anything about maximum size. So that's around 72G min which is obviously crazy different than the sizes in the US. Though to be fair there are breeders here recommending 25G. The 72 is from animal care/vet tech books, government animal protection (like RSPCA) and a commonly very trusted website. To be honest I was quite shocked to see 20G or sometimes even 10G being recommended on some US sites. 20 seems okay but I can barely fit any toys, wheels etc in it and 10 I can't even imagine. A bigger cage makes more sense to me if you have room for the length and width but bigger in height being divisive to the gerbils sounds logical, though I have no personal experience with it. Also I was worried when they get older they would fall from the top platforms. I think the 'US' minimum sizes are rather old fashioned standards, note that some US breeders also don't subscribe to the maximum cage size theory either.
Btw, for some bizarre reason the RSCPA no longer state a minimum size cage! (god knows why!!). Could you provide me links for the minimum cage size in NL? I'm still collating information about this subject, would be handy to add to my database , I'm after government, vet, or animal protection organisations websites.
Good to hear your Gerbils are getting on better
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Post by nixee on Sept 29, 2020 14:40:21 GMT -8
I never know if people are referring to US or UK gallons, what is the minimum in the UK? Your database sounds really interesting, is it available for public reading? I would be happy to link the Dutch ones as soon as I'm on my computer as it's hard on the phone.
Sadly gerbils aren't very popular here. We keep gerbils and other animals at my work and a lot of people who come here dont even know what they are, they think they are rats or mice 😫 And finding a very who knows anything about them has been impossible.
I keep reading things like "my gerbil has an UTI" and I'm flabbergasted and jealous that there are vets out there who can identify and treat a gerbil UTI or pancreatitis or anything else. The most I can get out of them here is antibiotics "just in case"
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Post by LilyandDaisy on Sept 29, 2020 15:22:43 GMT -8
Usually people are talking about US gallons. The UK doesn't really have an established minimum but generally people go by 10 (US) gallons per gerbil.
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Post by nixee on Oct 2, 2020 1:05:32 GMT -8
Tomorrow will be the first week done. Do you think this is a good time to try a short introduction based on these signs:
Good: - Almost no scent marking - Calm and settled quickly after swaps - Lots of kisses - Sleeping in each other's nests - Occasionally sitting next to each other and eating/grooming/chewing hay - No thumping or running away scared. Even with dog barking etc they are relaxed Bad: - The first day they tried to attack each other through the fence for hours - They occasionally move the nests around to far corners - Not sleeping next to each other
Unknown: - When they are very awake, active and curious and the lid is off they try to climb over to the other side, but it's not obsessively like flinging at the mesh - One of them immediately runs to the mesh as soon as the other one gets near, the other one seems more apathetic
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Post by betty on Oct 2, 2020 6:55:54 GMT -8
All the good signs are good for starters - so that's good!
The bad signs aren't so bad. All of my gerbils who have gone mad the first few days but calmed down have ended up pairing - I just gave them longer. Nearly all of my sucessful splits haven't been sleeping next to each other and quite often they make their nests in the far corner of the split tank and it hasn't impacted my intros.
Unknowns - same again - if you just have active/nosy gerbils then they will always try to leap up the divide when they can - many of mine were climbers. I think it is a personal trait rather than a result of the split.
Also, you want one of them to be 'not bothered' as one of the pair has to be the submissive one - however it is usually the apathetic one who decides whether they are a pair or not. If the quiet one stays quiet on the intros, you are good - but if the quiet one gets annoyed by the other one - that is where your split becomes difficult.
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Post by nixee on Oct 5, 2020 3:03:41 GMT -8
Thank you for your reply Betty that was so helpful and a relief to read that you've had successful pairings that started off crazy.
Gave it a very quick try today on day 9. Turnip tried to groom Parsnip (the one whole always ran to the mesh) first and Parsnip was like "oh hell no!" and pinned Turnip down and groomed her for a while until Turnip started running away.
She looked annoyed and freaked out so I separated them. Parsnip is now totally non-fussed and chewing hay, eating, grooming. Turnip is frozen in a corner like a deer in headlights.
Edit: was considering giving it another try tonight but decided I'm being impatient. Going to change a bit of their bedding today as it's getting stinky and give them 1-2 to see how they are getting along.
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Post by nixee on Oct 5, 2020 3:50:16 GMT -8
I haven't had many gerbils, only one pair before this at home and 3-4 pairs at work. My last pair were very "typical" in their roles. One was shy, calm, submissive and was the nest builder, the other one was brave, energetic, dominant and the explorer. The character of these ones are very hard to pin down with my limited experience.
Turnip is very calm and slow, sat in my hands from day one, is absolutely amazing at taking a tiny scrap of toilet paper and turning it into a huge mound of fluff to nest in, but she doesn't chew hay or carton at all, she is also a pro jumper and is constantly jumping on top of the water bottle and trying to get to the other side of the split. She hardly ever goes to the fence and in the intro she was annoyed and ran off.
Parsnip is hyper and always running around but also not at all freaked out by the things Turnip is scared of, she doesn't get on my hand easily and when she does she is always moving, she doesn't jump but she climbs crazy fast. She is horrible at making nests, her side is always a mess and flat and she is sleeping in the open, but she gets through a toilet roll or hay in 5 minutes. She is always running to the fence whenever Turnip is near, and in the intro she chased Parsnip around.
I assumed from day 1 that Parsnip would be the dominant one but now I'm not so sure how it will end up as they keep constantly surprising me. It's fascinating to watch and learn how they have such big characters in their tiny little bodies.
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Post by betty on Oct 5, 2020 5:17:16 GMT -8
Yes, they haven't decided who is going to be in charge yet - so you won't have such a clear visual clue as with before - they just get accepted as they are in a split intro and gerbils that were dominant in a previous clan won't always get that role in a new clan.
Yes, always after a failed attempt, leave a few days and do intense split as I call it. Make sure you make any changes immediately afterwards, then go full serious. No play, no treats, no cardboard or other anything. 3 side switches every day with no excessive handling and then on the morning of the next attempt do one morning side switch about half an hour before your remove the divide.
Good luck!
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Post by nixee on Oct 6, 2020 13:56:55 GMT -8
Thanks again Betty, I'm doing the intense split as you recommended and they do seem a lot more interested in each other. In the evenings they get very energetic and are constantly trying to get to each other, Ive been worried because I read everywhere they should ignore each other for a good intro. But it really does look like excitement and neither of them are showing anxiety.
Parsnip started randomly "popcorning" today, like what guinea pigs do, sudden and very fast but low hops in succession. I didn't know gerbils did that! She has very high energy and she loved her wheel so she must be going crazy poor thing.
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Post by nixee on Oct 7, 2020 2:22:50 GMT -8
Introduction try 2 on day 12: Turnip wouldn't come out of her nest, Parsnip climbed on her and groomed her face, no reaction from Turnip. She then started eating and doing her own thing. Next time she went to Turnip, Turnip started thumping so I separated them.
After the separation Turnip sat frozen in her nest for a few min, then she started growing and eating and didn't seem afraid to go near the fence where Parsnip was.
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