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Post by beachbumgerbils on Oct 12, 2020 7:28:07 GMT -8
Quick recap: I rescued a large clan of gerbils about a week ago and one of them ended up being pregnant. When I initially split everyone up, I didn't realize she was pregnant and I put her in with 2 slightly smaller females that are likely either her daughters or her sisters. They are in a 20 gallon long aquarium. 3 days after rescue, Momma saffron had 6 babies. Other than not being a great nest builder, she's been a very attentive mother. The 2 smaller females appear to be helping to take care of the babies and I have not observed any aggressive behavior at all between the 3 females. They all 3 curl up in the nest together to sleep. At 7 days old, one of the babies went missing. I can only assume deceased and eaten as 24 hours has passed and it hasn't shown back up in the nest. I gently went through the cage and couldn't find any remains. This did happen after I handled them for the first time to weigh and look them over. If I had known the female was pregnant, I might have left one other female with her, but not 2. Do you think I should I take the other 2 females out or just leave things be? Should I hold off on handling them again for a while? Momma didn't seem very agitated. I distracted the girls with treats and they completely ignored the nest as I took out the babies. Day 1  Day 5  Day 8   |
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Post by betty on Oct 12, 2020 14:31:48 GMT -8
Oh my, I forget how adorable babies are!
Well, depending on whether you know when they were all split up - could the girls in with her be pregnant too or has that time frame passed? If they could be, then it might be worth separating now if you didn't want the chance of Saffron mum taking a dislike to the latecomers?
If not: If I had the space and they were mine - and I was planning on keeping any of the female pups from this new litter - I would defo take the two females out. Purely because a trio of unrelated females isn't high on the list of 'stable clans' anyway, but also because any pups added to that could potentialy make it more unstable over time anyway.
Now saying that of course - clans in really small cages tend not to declan as often as clans in 'normal' enclosures (as eveidence by this rescue in of itself) - so there is that to consider too for yourself. I mean you have 12 in one tank already?
Saying that, I personally would never *recommend* a group of females (other than mum + 2 pups if they only had two females in their litter) but your circumstances are different here, and it might be that leaving them in a big group until you notice any unrest might work best as they all have a shared experience and have their special bonds. (and it will save on tank space in the short term at least).
With such a large clan though, I wouldn't like to hazard a guess on how the heirachy would work if they did come to blows so that in of itself could be a messy declan - ie it could end up with a single pair and the odd singles worst case.
Distracted them with treats - works a charm doesn't it!
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Post by beachbumgerbils on Oct 12, 2020 14:49:08 GMT -8
They really do go from kind of creepy to adorable very quickly!
In theory, all of the males and females were split up about a month ago and none of them were supposed to be pregnant. So I'm not even thinking about rehoming any of them for another month until I'm sure there will be no more surprises. The girls shouldn't be pregnant, but they could be. If I notice any weight gain, I will immediately give them their own individual tank.
I almost took the 2 out when I realized mom was pregnant and then babies happened the next day and the girls seemed to be helping with care. My plan now, as long as everyone continues to play nice, is to take the young adult pair out in 2-3 weeks. I have an odd number of females, so I'm going to end up with a trio somewhere. I will probably have that be momma saffron and her 2 females babies (if they both make it).
Lol, yes, 12 in one tank is pretty insane. They did get upgraded to a 40 gallon this weekend and are definitely enjoying the extra space and toys. I should be able to wean 4 of that group in the next 1-2 weeks. Annoying mix, the 4 tweeners are 1 male and 3 females. I may leave one female in and later pair her with one of the younger ones. I have an unrelated older male I can try and split the young male with. It's a fun puzzle!
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Post by betty on Oct 12, 2020 14:58:31 GMT -8
Yes, matching up litters is always a balancing act depending on numbers, ages and customer wants.
That is the main reason why I always tried to have more than one female pairing when I was breeding, just so you then had 4 litters to pair up the odds and ends with if you needed to.
I had several litters that were all males too - so noone left for mum if you take all the females out from the first litter before you have sexed the second!
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Post by Markpd on Oct 12, 2020 14:59:49 GMT -8
The difference between day 5 and 8 is amazing! Very cute at day 8!  . 12 in one tank!? Ah you so have to take a video of them! Must be mayhem!  , would love to see that . betty Now saying that of course - clans in really small cages tend not to declan as often as clans in 'normal' enclosures Oh that complicates my project!  , I was getting close to posting too, lol. |
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Post by LilyandDaisy on Oct 12, 2020 15:03:18 GMT -8
Now saying that of course - clans in really small cages tend not to declan as often as clans in 'normal' enclosures Oh that complicates my project! , I was getting close to posting too, lol. What is your project? |
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Post by betty on Oct 12, 2020 15:05:36 GMT -8
Ha ha - I did think of you when I wrote that!
I have no stats for it of course - but when I worked at the rescue - and in this example above - MANY 'rescued' gerbils are living in tiny cages and in family colonies without too many issues? (just the whole pup explosion).
There is often a limb missing (but this may have just happened when a few hours old due to overcrowding or other-enthusiastic grooming by a novice) or some nips and bites (and in Beachbums example sometimes a noticably chewed up rump) - but usually no massive declanning?
Perhaps get in contact with the RSPCA Brighton small animal team and ask about any stats from their latest haul that last month - and see if you can get cage densities, sex ratios and injuries etc. They might not give out or even gather that info - but it is certainly something to maybe leave hanging open in your project?
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Post by beachbumgerbils on Oct 12, 2020 16:01:45 GMT -8
Markpd - When I rescued them, 27 gerbils were all mish mashed together in 4 little cages. 1 of the cages had 2 adult females and 2 different litters that werent old enough to wean. I dont know which pups belong to which mom, so I'm leaving them all together until all of the pups are old enough to wean. It is adorable chaos!
When I start breeding on purpose, my plan is to try and have 2 pregnant females at a time, just for that reason! For now, I have enough younsters that I'll be able to work it out easily enough.
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Post by Markpd on Oct 13, 2020 10:21:08 GMT -8
Poor things, I bet they're much happier now! Waiting for video of adorable chaos Lilyanddaisy An (attempt) at an all encompassing counter to the theory by some that that large cages causes declanning. I've been working on and off it since July, although I haven't added to it in over a month or so (not had time). I could PM you it if you're interested, but please don't post it as it's not complete yet, hence I haven't posted it to date. betty Yea I could give them a call, although my issue isn't with clans in small cages but in large cages, are they likely to have large cages? What I need is clan stats from large cages, which is why I signed up and posted to the German gerbil forum (an ongoing thread which I haven't had much time to post to so far, still researching and deciding on a bloody washing machine! Lol, getting close to the end of that at least). Re your comment, and the larger cages didn't have defendable zones? |
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Post by betty on Oct 13, 2020 14:22:39 GMT -8
Yes, you are right - you are more intersted in gerbil declans in large enclosures not small - and the RSPCA don't usualy have the luxury of giant enclosures - as they need people to be able to see the gerbils to rehome them!
I assume you have contacted any zoos/wildlife centres in the UK and other countries where possible to see if they house gerbils in larger enclosures too - and what is the border between a large domestic enclosure and a small disply enclosure?
Perhaps also try to find gerbil fb groups in other languages and ask about their larger set ups to see if they have declanning issues in their standard 1m or more enclosures. Or, we all chip in for BeachBumGerbils to get giant enclosures for all their gerbils and see what happens?
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Post by Markpd on Oct 14, 2020 11:05:35 GMT -8
Lol, I like the last idea No I haven't rung any zoos etc about it, but that's a good idea! As for fb or forums in other languages, I've already got my work cut out in the German forum! Although I can more or less read French (but not really write! lol), so that would be an easier step. I didn't try that 1st as no one that I read mentioned large Gerbil cages for France like they did for Germany, but I'll investigate that at some point. I wonder if I could rope in a French relation to help me? |
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Post by LilyandDaisy on Oct 14, 2020 11:11:29 GMT -8
The problem with zoos is that they're more likely to be keeping their gerbils in natural conditions, i.e in a breeding pair or colony, which is not at all the same as keeping a same sex pair or group. Most same sex pairs stay together in captivity, but if we put them in the wild (hypothetically assuming they could even survive in the wild), would they still stay together? Or would they separate to look for their own mates and form their own territories? It would be an interesting experiment. I think the anecdotal evidence mostly supports the idea that within the bounds of normal enclosure sizes (so up to perhaps 5-6 feet long), space won't cause a pair to declan. But, beyond that size, we don't really know, because very few people have enclosures that large and we can't conclude much about domestic gerbils from wild gerbils because of the differences in how we keep them. But it would definitely to be interesting to hear any information you can get from zoos about how their gerbils live and what kind of enclosures they use.
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Post by Markpd on Oct 14, 2020 12:04:15 GMT -8
Yea quite possibly, although if they also don't want lots of pups all the time maybe they would have same sex groups too?
I'd need to find out which Zoos kept them 1st.
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Post by LilyandDaisy on Oct 14, 2020 12:20:37 GMT -8
That's true, and it would be interesting to know how they keep them. I found this website which lists all the zoos in the world that have Mongolian gerbils. |
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Post by Markpd on Oct 14, 2020 12:30:25 GMT -8
Nice find! Although only 1 UK zoo listed (Battersea park).[edit] Just emailed them. Just noticed that Gerbil photo is from 2013 and they don't list them on their site anymore  . |
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, would love to see that 
, I was getting close to posting too, lol.
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