List of gerbil breeders + please report your experiences

[betty]

Yes, I agree - pet only breeders should stick to pet-safe genes - but show breeders are only responding to the phenotypics (the looks) as it is - after all - an appearance competition not a healthy gene competition. So just like with dog breeding, those within the fancy need to decide on what they think is acceptable and it is up to the fancy body to make sure that they only allow healthy animals.

Ergo, if there is a class for the 'most white' gerbil - people will do their utmost to create that appearance - and in the UK at least - Sls is one of the easiest, most consistant ways to do it.

You are right that the Sls gene only creates a 'post-natal lethal' fatality (when a pup is born but is sure to pass when very young) when in both parents have the (dominant) gene AND both those genes end up in the same live pup. Inheritance-wise this is a 1 in 4 chance - so a quarter of all the pups that those two Sls parent have should be live born 'rumpbacks' (all white pups except a dark patch on their rump).

And - in reference to your other comment - I have often thought about the phrase we all use saying 'improving the species' - but what actually would that be, physically, if we were comparing breeders? Surely too, if we don't use the same standards for small scale breeders we can't guarantee that they aren't just breeding gerbils they got from a store, or a rescue (and therefore can't possibly be breeding to 'better' anything as they don't know what they are starting with?). Not any easy question to answer. I would posit that only an 'oops' litter would be excluded from this - and that the place they got their gerbils from was the one to be judged more harshly for it (unless that was also an 'oops litter of course!!!!).

[Shooting Star]

Jan 6, 2021 10:47:33 GMT -8 betty said:

As for your comments of Sls being a defect you think shouldn't be 'released' - then you need to run that rule for ANY breeders who breed, show or sell extreme spotted or extreme white gerbils. If the gene is in your stock because you are breeding or showing those colour patterns, then you MUST be releasing it in all your gerbils whether they are extreme spotted or not.

Uh, no. Sls is a simple dominant. If a gerbil isn't White Paw or Extreme White (or SlsSls lethal), it doesn't have the gene. Minimally-marked WP can be confused with solid, and higher-expression WP with Dom Spot, and could conceivably get out that way, but breeding with Sls doesn't mean it's in all your gerbils.

[betty]

Ahh - sorry - maybe I phrased it wrong. It is dominant of course - and not every gerbil from Sls lines would 'have it' - but people can't see it on its own in almost all gerbil coat colours.

Therefore I was saying that if you are breeding Sls genes into your stock for whatever then that gene could well be in any stock you sell and home. There is absolutely no way to 100% determine it on appearance alone.

I was more trying to clarify the rule than the gene. I mean there is no point banning a breeder from the 'good breeder list' for something if you haven't covered your back completely. Banning only breeders who have homed an obvious Sls carrying individual would be like only banning people from your house who tell you they have a third kidney even though some people won't know that they have a third kidney but you would still be letting them in anyway? Wow, that is a weird example?

So I was just trying to say that if Sls is deemed a 'bad' gene full stop - then all breeders working with it should be on the naughty list? Just a debating point.

[Shooting Star]

I don't have personal experience with Sls, but if you're breeding for WP/EW appearance, would they not be high enough expression to be identifiable? High-expression WP could still be mistaken for low-expression Dom Spot-- but you'd know Sls had been crossed into the line.

Regardless, I think the problem here isn't rehoming Sls gerbils, but rehoming them without disclosing that they are or could be Sls. Any decent breeder should be disclosing that, and ensuring the adopters know what it means. There's no reason Sls gerbils can't go to pet homes, as long as they stay pets and aren't bred.

I have my adopters sign a simple adoption contract, with one of the clauses being that they agree not to breed the gerbils, because they may have genetic defects that can be passed on to pups or mutations that shouldn't be released into the general population. I think that's really all you can ask of a breeder, that they do their best to ensure any gerbils with problematic genetics are sent to pet-only homes.

[betty]

I haven't bred with them either - I never really wanted gerbils with more white on them. I like the solid selfs best - but had normal spotting in there just so the people could tell them apart.

And yes indeed, a gerbil with the Sls gene makes as good a pet gerbil as any non-Sls gerbils.

I totally agree that it should be disclosed by breeders - but I must say in the UK it seems that gerbil people really aren't up on the whole contract part for pet homes - that I have ever heard anyway. It really is just a matter of assuming that unless someone mentions breeding that it will be a pet home and no more is said. Unfortunately though, I think the people most likely to breed from unknown gerbil stock aren't the type of people to impose restrictions on buyers either.

[Markpd]

I recall Raystede rescue ctr asking to agree to a contract before selling a gerbil, but that's the only one I recall.

As for show gerbils, ideally any show organisation (e.g NGS, I don't know if their are others) should just flat out ban any sls gerbils, with every gerbil presented having documentation showing a negative result of the sls gene. But, I'm betting their isn't any such genetic test (or any genetic test?) for gerbils? So that kind of ban wouldn't be possible to consistently apply by the sound of it (from visual determination).
Also, judging by shows of e.g dogs, many show organisations aren't bothered by long term health (thinking of all the genetic defects in certain thorough bred dogs). So I don't know how likely any gerbil show organisation would want to ban sls in the 1st place?

Re breeding in general, I don't think any new (or old) genes need to 'improve' the breed (though that would be a bonus), but they certainly shouldn't degrade the health of gerbils either, so maintaining the breeds health should be the main goal.

So the ultimate ideal outcome for the sls gene is that it disappears.

***********************************************

Anyway, going back to my list, perhaps it would be enough to de-list someone where it is clear they are selling sls gerbils without disclosing it?
Or, should I keep them in just the 'known' list and add that it appears, or is known, that they sell sls gerbils?

[betty]

Well the NGS (UK) only go up to a 'mottled' coat (up to 75% white) which can be displayed on gerbils carrying just the dominant Spotting gene (Sls isn't required for this).

Therefore, if you feel so strongly about the Sls gene on general gerbil health - perhaps you should contact the NGS themselves and ask about what THEY are aware of about possible health risks - and how often they hear of an accidental post-natal death (suspected or proven) from this gene. And perhaps enquire as to what warnings if any they put on their notes and advice around the gene on their website or fact sheets for breeders or potential breeders?

You could also certainly contact some breeders who are known to work with the gene to find out what the results on health this gene has other than the megacolon. I know in the past there were notes on working with the gene further to try to extend the life of these pups on egerbil - which I believe met with some progress from the initial discovery of the issue.

I'm not sure we want to go as far as a total ban on these gerbils if we haven't truly discovered what those risks actually are, and how often this is known to cause an issue in the general public (as I am sure all sensible breeders wouldn't (or wouldn't be needing to) be using double Sls pairings).

As for improving the breed - it is slightly different to improving the interest in the fancy - and this often works on discovering and working with a new colour or coat-type gene. I thought that there were originally issues with the new dilute gene (Blue) - but I can't find my notes as that MAY have actually been from another fancy - so sometimes working with something 'currently' detrimental to a gerbils health can help identify (in the right hands) if it can actually be made safer moving forwards. Like the Rex coat - it originally didn't appear to be safe and have massive health-related issues - but now you can buy a Rex-coated gerbil with confidence.

I suppose if you were only allowed to breed for health for each individual gerbil or litter, then you wouldn't be able to work with these genes full stop.

[Markpd]

I thought it was a fact that a pup with 2x sls genes would die young from malformed internals? (the megacolon you mention I suppose). Is that not established then?
I don't know who does breed sls gerbils, how would I find out?
Hmm, not sure that it is fair to work with genes that are detrimental even if it is only for a short time. I suppose it depends on the effects, if it doesn't cause them pain, but say just shortened their lives a little for a small number of generations, then that wouldn't be too bad, but if it caused them pain &/or debilitating disease then that wouldn't be fair for however few generations.

Tempted to contact the NGS as you mentioned....

Wow this thread has just spiralled into complicated issues! lol, all I wanted to do was post a growing list of good breeders with experiences by the buyers! And now we're talking about breeding ethics!

[LilyandDaisy]

I don't think it should be banned, but excessive amounts of white should probably be a fault in showing, even in mottled classes, because it is a trait associated with problems. Wrong colour claws / claws of different colours and white on the paws in non-spotted gerbils are already faults and these are the features of a whitepaw gerbil, so really, there should be no reason to breed sls gerbils for show.

[betty]

"Wow this thread has just spiralled into complicated issues! lol, all I wanted to do was post a growing list of good breeders with experiences by the buyers! And now we're talking about breeding ethics!"

Markpd - how can you talk about good breeders without talking about ethics? Without ethical discussions and guidelines - how do you know who a good breeder even is? But if it is only going on the buyers opinion, then that is completely different - a good breeder will ooze certain qualities in everything they do - not just the one contact they have when they sell their gerbils.

It is also very easy to use phrases like 'improving the breed', 'good care' and 'breeding healthy gerbils' but if you haven't clarified what those phrases actually mean - then you can't stick to them. Hence this very intersting and thought-provoking discussion.

And yes, I believe any live-born pups that are SlsSls will starve to death if the condition is left to progress without treatment, therapeutic care or euthanasia. Not painless at all I wouldn't imagine. But I really don't know if anyone is still working on this gene combination? I would assume that when something is tested for a several years with no improvement - unless something new comes along to treat it - people will then just stop. I should hope that no-one is still working to 'improve' or eradicate megacolon after all this time, but I don't know how you would find out.

I suppose if someone innocently posts pictures of their gerbils online and you spot the whole toenail thing - you could in theory trace back their line to a breeder - but this could well be a bit circumstantial as people don't always tell the truth about their stock or breeding lines and many people misinterpret what actually happens.


And Lilyand Daisy - you are right about most Sls carrier with the toenails - instant rejection for mismatched-to-coat-colour toenails - but Sls takes the colour out of a solid coat toenail - so easier to spot when displaying in a gerbil that is unaccompanied by the Dominant Spotting gene. But (dominant) spotted gerbils all have white nails as this gene has a bleaching effect, so it is possible that an extreme white gerbil carrying both would go undetected. I don't know this for a fact - so would need to look up show samples. Same with standard coat colours that have pale nails already.

[Markpd]

I didn't use the term 'improving the breed' that was lilyanddaisy, I used the term 'maintaining breed health', it's less complicated .

Also I wasn't criticizing or taking the mick that this thread was getting complicated, just making light that a relatively straightforward aim ended up being anything but!
But anyway, you're right of course that breeder ethics does matter, although yes my thread was largely intended to be from buyers opinions, as a start. Great if we can add more info on the breeders though

[betty]

Sorry, I wasn't saying YOU you - I was saying anyone you:

"If you (as in anyone trying to create a standard) doesn't actually create a comparible and fact-based standard; then you (as in anyone who is trying to put rules in place for a standard) can't clearly differentiate between 'good' breeders or 'bad breeders'."

And the comment you mention simply came after the paragraph where I had quoted your first comment but it was just a general comment pulling together various general thoughts that often crop up anywhere when you discuss 'good' breeders. Anyone could have said or thought it as it is exactly what you WOULD want from a good breeder - but need clarifying. Your own statement would also be best with a clarifier too - we would need to find a way to clarify and put a score to 'maintains breed health'.

I was just trying to show how the two things were interlinked when you actually get down to the details. Very often people slide over the details in things - just general chat about how things should or could be - but until - like this thread - you have people who are challenging the finer details and clarifying facts - you realise that there is so much more involved. I was saying it was a good thing.

My brain always looks for the finer details - so when I pick something up it doesn't mean I agree or disagree with anyone - it means that the wider context needs to be examined before it can be 'enforced' if you like.

Going purely on the opinions of people who have brought off a breeder who they liked is a great start for any list of course, but if anyone wanting to create a useable standard to rate breeders (or at least create a list of essential things to look out for when buying from a breeder) - then anyone who wants to create such a standard needs to be more specific. It doesn't mean it is impossible and it doesn't mean I don't want the same. My comments are purely being added to make sure that if someone does want to create this type of thing that it will stand up to scrutiny as such - and can be enforceable and realistic.

I think it is a great idea and I love where this thread is going - thanks for starting it - and I wish more forum people could get involved in commenting their opinions...

[Markpd]

I'm looking to move this thread as it seems to be forgotten in this obscure corner of the forum, I certainly had forgotten about it!
I'm not sure where to move it to though! Lol, the General section?

[Markpd]

And again I (and others) have forgotten about this thread, I'm going to move it to the General section, seeing as no one answered me .