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Post by maplesyrup2026 on Jan 11, 2021 16:08:17 GMT -8
Yes they are all good and healthy, you dont have to cook any of them. Personally I wouldnt cook the rice or oats, but its up to you!
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Post by Scott on Jan 12, 2021 4:24:30 GMT -8
It does though because the rice grows larger pushing outwards (on a full stomach), the rice in the bowl isn't constrained, imagine the rice had a cover on it (that doesn't float), it would have lifted it. Whether the rice in the bowl is constrained has nothing to do with it; that doesn't change the fact of expansion or the lack of it. If the level of the rice does not rise, then how can it lift a cover? The only thing that matters is whether the volume has changed. So I did a second experiment, to more closely examine the effect of the change of volume, if any, of a given amount of rice+water. So here I measured out 50 rice and marked the height (some parts were above this, but this was the level of most): To that, I added just enough water to cover; as per your note, this was done to be sure the water filled up all the spaces between: I then waited 2.5 hours: The volume is essentially identical. I forgot to dump out the rice/water, so I also have it the following morning, >12 hours total. Pretty clearly, the story is a myth.
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Post by Markpd on Jan 12, 2021 5:11:10 GMT -8
Their is very slight expansion. Your previous photos showed an increase in volume of both partially cooked and raw rice, (and you said so for the partially cooked rice) but maybe for the raw rice photo that was just down to the angle of the camera? I was under the impression that rice granules expand a lot as they absorb water (that's why I said it would lift a lid), supported (weakly) by your previous photos showing expansion with the partially cooked rice, so the story is still possible although unlikely. And reading around some more about rice, it seems that most of the expansion happens when it's cooked, rather than cold water. So unless you want to contest your early photos, I think we can agree that their is a little expansion, and so the story is unlikely (maybe very unlikely) but not impossible. If you do contest it I suggest we switch to PMs or start a new thread on the off topic forum, although tbh I don't think I would have anything more to add. You are likely much closer to the truth than the story would have us believe, but it's not completely disproven .
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Post by Scott on Jan 13, 2021 9:02:54 GMT -8
The expansion was mainly in the cooked rice: near-boiling water over the course of some time--and the expansion was less than the rice+water volume (it was par-cooked). Remember, after cooking the rice I drained and added more water to cover, and that rice did not expand further. Rice absolutely does expand when cooked with water, but that expansion is only greater than the initial *rice* volume, not the rice+water combined volume. I'm not sure what you mean by contesting the early photos, which do not contradict this. But that's with contact with near boiling water, which is not a factor with POWs (or gerbils). With room temperature water, even an overnight soak created negligible expansion. Let's go back to the original statement that started all this: "I didn't think most animals could have uncooked rice? I remember years ago, my friends neighbours used to put it out for the pigeons to try and kill them - I shudder at the thought! Something to do with it expanding slightly in their stomachs and causing blockages in the intestines as it doesn't get broken down, but I guess it would depend on how much was ingested." This is an urban legend that has been pretty thoroughly debunked, and my experiments further support that.
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Post by Scott on Jan 13, 2021 11:46:36 GMT -8
One last experiment! This was intended to address two issues: 1) the earlier experiments were done at room temperature; if the issue is ingested rice, then it really needs to be body temp, to more accurately confront the question. 2) to more precisely address the rice expanding in a constricted space. So I filled a small plastic bag with rice as far as I could while still able to seal it, then filled the bag with water, ensuring that any spaces between the rice grains were filled. I actually overfilled the water, to ensure 100% of the available space was filled upon sealing. To mimic body temperature I put the rice packet in a sous vide bath set to 98.5 degrees F (the device is settable in 0.5 degree F increments); it can hold it to within 0.1 degree F increments very accurately. (the perspective exaggerates the foreground size; the container is about 1 gallon). After taking the photos I covered the opening and wrapped the container with a towel, for energy efficiency. After two hours, I removed the packet; it was unchanged. I specifically chose this sort of packet because the seal is tenuous--any pressure would have burst it. So in the event of expansion, even if the plastic itself held, the seal would not have. Once again, there was no expansion beyond that of the original rice+water.
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Post by Markpd on Jan 13, 2021 11:53:17 GMT -8
Nice experiment! Btw that statement about pigeons etc wasn't mine, I only stated this :- I could be wrong here, but I think the idea of dried (uncooked) rice swelling and killing it's eater is from WW2, as I recall it was a form of torture by a certain country where a large amount of uncooked rice was force fed to a prisoner, then they would force them to drink water and it expanded and killed them! I can't remember where I heard that from now though, and I haven't checked it out more recently to see if it's correct.
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Post by Scott on Jan 14, 2021 5:43:36 GMT -8
Nice experiment! Btw that statement about pigeons etc wasn't mine, I only stated this :- I could be wrong here, but I think the idea of dried (uncooked) rice swelling and killing it's eater is from WW2, as I recall it was a form of torture by a certain country where a large amount of uncooked rice was force fed to a prisoner, then they would force them to drink water and it expanded and killed them! I can't remember where I heard that from now though, and I haven't checked it out more recently to see if it's correct. Right, I was just going back to address the original--ON TOPIC--post that started this: basically, can gerbils eat rice, and the whole urban legend about it swelling in birds' stomachs. Further note: I can find no other references to this claim regarding the Japanese. Looking into the history, the story began spreading in the early 1980s, culminating in 1985 when a bill known as ″An Act Prohibiting The Use Of Uncooked Rice At Nuptial Affairs″ was introduced in the state of Connecticut (AFAIK, it did not become law). It went underground to some extent, but then in 1996 the syndicated advice columnist Ann Landers repeated it in one of her columns, after which it became part of popular culture. Regarding Sgt Tate, the story appears in a book published by his son in 2017, "Surviving the Japanese Onslaught," about a decade after the father died. Not making a personal judgement, but the totality of facts would imply that the son embellished things. As the saying goes, "don't let the facts get in the way of a good story."
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Post by tanzanyte on Jan 17, 2021 5:55:28 GMT -8
Sorry, I didn't mean to cause so much trouble. It was only something I heard years ago and have never looked into, but I did state that in my post. It was just one of those things stuck in my head that I steered clear of giving to any animals just incase.
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Post by tanzanyte on Jan 17, 2021 6:39:08 GMT -8
Not sure how to link properly to an old post but I've just been looking at home made food recipes, after Betty suggested doing searches on here in a different post, and I found this thread. Whilst it's an old post, it might be best to be cautious with the amount of rice given in gerbil diets, and maybe avoid white rice. If anyone else has given rice regularly as part of their gerbils diet it would be interesting to hear how it's gone. gerbilforum.proboards.com/thread/28407/planned-homemade-mix-feedbackI've changed this so that you can hopefully find the right thread even though I can't seem to link to it. Sorry!
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Post by betty on Jan 17, 2021 18:01:07 GMT -8
How very interesting tanzanyte - and thank you for finding that snippet. I do find that when people state something they had heard was true and then start a debate into whether it is ACTUALLY true - this is the result: Some real good practical experimentation and research. Quite frightening when you hear about an actual example of something in more than one clan of gerbils. Quite often we only get feedback form someone with 'pet' gerbils and it can be more of an assumption as there is usually nothing to compare it to - but when breeders spot a pattern - you know that something isn't right. Of course, it could have just been something specific in their lines or in that specific rice or the way it was prepared - but eitherway - 13 unexplained gerbils passing at the same time as the new diet was introduced/removed is still quite horrible to think of - and would certainly make me reconsider a large amount of ANY one ingredient in a diet. I am sure small amounts of rice wouldn't have caused this effect - just like small amounts of nuts or fruit don't - but when they represent a large percentage of a daily/weekly/monthly diet - their problems can multiply up. Such a shame. And great science their Scott - love all the technology used!
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Post by Markpd on Jan 18, 2021 12:28:07 GMT -8
So in that old thread (which btw tanzanyte, that link you gave goes to hear ), jazzable talks about excess calcium, is that what's wrong with white rice? [edit] Actually, looking at her post I linked at the bottom here, maybe it was not enough calcium? Another possible issue with white rice is that it is high on the glycemic index, could the rapid conversion of carbs to glucose be a problem for gerbils?? Anyone know what band GI their regular grains fall into?
Sorry, I didn't mean to cause so much trouble. It was only something I heard years ago and have never looked into, but I did state that in my post. It was just one of those things stuck in my head that I steered clear of giving to any animals just incase. No need to apologise, just me and scott went down a rabbit hole with that discussion , I apologise for my part in taking the thread off topic, although I think the information was useful nonetheless. I tried to find that old thread you did, but I couldn't with Google,..... I wonder, maybe if I find the poster johanne , then check their posts (if they haven't done 1000s, lol).
Ok found it, I don't know why Google couldn't find it, the title you gave was right even if the link was wrong. Or if you want to link to specific post, click on the gear icon at the top right of that post and select 'Link to post', then copy the url in 'Link to this post in this thread:' (always better to show the whole thread IMO), then either just directly paste it here as above, or in the advanced reply (the 'reply' button on the right in your quick post window, or the window your automatically given when you edit a post of yours), add the url to the text of your choosing (much tidier), like so johanne's post on rice and gerbils.
Btw, it seems that johanne is (or at least was then) the person who ran Prairegerbils, a breeder in the US. Pitty those breeders who used to post here are no longer active
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Post by tanzanyte on Jan 19, 2021 7:30:17 GMT -8
Thanks Mark. I thought I had to use the symbols at the top to create a link rather than just pasting the address. Lesson learned for next time.
The information from you and Scott was useful. Plus I love a good experiment!
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Post by Markpd on Jan 19, 2021 7:49:51 GMT -8
You don't have to use the link icon but it's tidier, but just pasting it is much quicker
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Post by tanzanyte on Jan 19, 2021 12:56:46 GMT -8
But I definitely had the correct link because I pasted it in the link and then used the same paste when I gave up and just pasted it into the main body. When I tried it again it still linked to this thread. What on earth am I doing wrong?
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Post by Markpd on Jan 19, 2021 15:34:20 GMT -8
I don't know! I'm baffled! lol
Maybe some kind of forum bug? You might be able to suss out what's going on if you hit the 'BBcode' button and look at the linked word when it's got messed up?
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