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Post by Markpd on Jan 11, 2021 17:35:34 GMT -8
Following on from a conversation here talking about separate linked cages and the de-clanning risk of them, I and others thought it would be useful if we could gather data on how peoples clans got on. Once their is enough data, the plan is to add it to a Google form to see if we can pick out any unknown data. e.g It's generally considered that a clan of 2 gerbils is more stable than bigger clans, but how much less stable is a trio? Or a quad? How much difference to pairs does it make if they are unrelated? What difference does cage size make? So for now this is just a data gathering exercise, but in the long run (some years I guess!?), maybe we can start getting an idea of the different risks? What I'm after is experiences from clans that have run their course, so either they all lived happily ever after until they passed away (bar the last gerbil, that's possibly a separate extra clan story then) or they declanned. So I'm not after information about gerbils that are currently together (although feel free to discuss that in the latter part of your message ). Report Guide
Please start with the facts I'm after and copy the table below (some lines can be deleted, as e.g it's obvious that sisters are females! , their won't be 'aggravating factors' if they didn't declan, and 'time together' will normally be from birth if they are siblings). For cage sizes please don't just say big or small, but give at least approx. dimensions or volume. And where it's changed, new cage sizes. Mention toppers, and if any multiple linked cages :- Clan size -
Relationship -
Gender(s) -
Age at beginning of clan -
Age at end of clan -
And/or, time together -
Cage size -
Declanned? - (yes/no)
Aggravating factor(s) - (If declanned, and if known, e.g illness of a gerbil triggered the declann)
After you've posted the above info (at the beginning of your message), feel free to discuss the context of their declanning, and reason if known, or any further info you feel is related, but please make a clear break in the text from the basic info and further explanations. That way, when it comes to me recording the data from multiple pages of posts (hopefully!), it's much easier and quicker to extract. If you don't have all the info, e.g can't remember how old they were when you got them, don't worry, post what you've got, it'll likely still be useful. The exception being if you can't remember how many gerbils their were . If you feel I've missed out something, or something's not clear, then by all means lmk . Basic stats, early tally so far (currently only includes genders and declan or not). Updated 16/3/24 (UK date format)
- 28+ pairs with no declans (of which 10 pairs weren't categorised, see below for breakdown*). - 7 pairs declanned (see below for breakdown*) - 5 trios declanned (all males, 2 trios not all related and one trio probably all related, 1 trio unknown relationship of all males, 1 trio assumed brothers (illness triggered declan)) - 3 trios, didn't declan (1 all males, unknown relationship, others were mother and daughters) - 3 groups of four declanned (1 unrelated males, other 4 sisters, another 2 sisters+2 daughters) - 1 group of six declanned (mother and daughters) - 1 group of eight declanned (unrelated males) *A breakdown of the stats for pairs as of 16/3/24 :-
Male
1 pair of brothers didn't declan 1 pair of unrelated males didn't declan 3 pairs of brothers declanned (my 1st pair, ps25's and zb's) 1 pair of unrelated males declanned
Female
6 pairs of sisters didn't declan
1 pair of sisters declanned
8 unrelated pairs of females didn't declan (1 were together for just 4 months, another pair 6 mths) 2 pairs of females declanned (1 mother and daughter, other unrelated)
Mixed
2 mixed pairs, both with neutered males, didn't declan
35+ pairs in total.
Don't read too much into the male declanning numbers yet, we have insufficient data really. I think that's right! LMK if you think it's off.
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Post by LilyandDaisy on Jan 12, 2021 9:54:42 GMT -8
This goes way to back to my very first gerbils so please excuse the small enclosures:
3 males, brothers, bought as pups Pets at Home small gerbilarium - 52x26x25cm tank with a topper the same size. 1 died after the first few weeks leaving just a pair. The pair remained together until the second gerbil died at about 2 years old.
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2 males, brothers, bought as pups Pets at Home large gerbilarium - 70x37x25cm plus a topper the same size Together until the end. Unfortunately I can't remember how old they were when the first one died but they lived a couple of years at least.
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2 females, sisters, bought as pups 75x45x38cm tank Together until the end - the first one died when they were just under 3 years old.
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Post by Markpd on Jan 12, 2021 11:29:30 GMT -8
Thanks for the info lilyanddaisy , hopefully that'll get the ball rolling. I think your 1st cage is bigger than the 3 storey Rotastak we used from the late 70s to '88! [edit] Later on was 5 units.
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Post by ps25 on Jan 13, 2021 7:06:53 GMT -8
Multiple male or female pairs (more than 10 pairs over 20 years, some related, some unrelated) in various enclosures and have never declanned.
Trio of females. Introduced 2 young pups (sisters) to an older female (about 18months old?). Largish tank (cant remember the size but probably equivalent to a 20g). Stable until the older female died. Remaining pair stayed together until they died.
Group of 4 males, not all brothers but all introduced together as very young pups, 20g tank with topper. Declanned at about 4months old. Kept 3 of those males together in the 20g tank until they were about 3 years old. Two days before the boss died, I had to separate them as it looked like they were heading towards a declan. I suspect they "knew" the boss was on his way out :-(
Another group of 3 brothers, 20g tank with topper. Were stable for about 12 months until I chose to remove one of them to pair with another lone gerbil. Both pairs are still together.
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Post by Markpd on Jan 13, 2021 8:16:46 GMT -8
Thanks for the info ps25 About the 1st 3 males, yea they do seem to detect illness before we can. Was it the 'boss' who died? About the pairs, were they related? What sort of range size were the enclosures? The trio of females, were the pups sisters? And do you remember how old they lived to? And the 2nd male trio, are they brothers?
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Post by ps25 on Jan 13, 2021 8:49:17 GMT -8
Markpd Edited my original post to answer your questions as best I can
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Post by Markpd on Jan 13, 2021 11:48:52 GMT -8
Thanks
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Post by Markpd on Jan 17, 2021 15:25:05 GMT -8
Hmm, gone quiet already Ok so I'm going to ping a few people, as well as ask more generally. So for those of you who've had gerbils for many years and can't remember them all, or it would just take ages to go through records, could you at least post the last few (or even just 1) clans and their outcomes? (as per the op). And if you feel like it you could always add more at a later date. By all means tell me if theirs anyone else I should ping, or ping them for me . betty Shooting Star catnut beachbumgerbils betty - I know you posted a big table ( here, for those interested), but theirs some info I want for clans which isn't their, hence asking you again here, if you could post about at least a few clans? .
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Post by Shooting Star on Jan 17, 2021 15:47:24 GMT -8
I'm not much use for a survey like this, because my clans are constantly changing. For example, if I have a breeding pair, I'd eventually split the dad off with some sons I'm keeping, and leave some daughters with mom. Depending on my plans, I'll often remove the dad after a bit to pair with a different female, leaving the sons together. Then I'd eventually peel off one or more sons for breeding. Same with the females. My only long-term clans are my retired breeders, and even those tend to have some swapping around unless both gerbils in the pair are retired. Not uncommon with males, but I don't typically keep more than one post-breeding female in a clan. Once she's been a matriarch, a female wants to stay in charge; two of those together is generally a bad mix.
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Post by betty on Jan 17, 2021 17:10:25 GMT -8
As for me - age at end of clan - I could probably look this up for most of them if I have a spare few hours - and edit it in to my original post - but you will need to gently remind me every few weeks incase it slips my mind. It will quite a task.
As for cage sizes - unfortunately for me that is not going to be possible in most cases.
I used to have a huge bank of tanks and everyone would move around the enclosures depending on who died, who declanned and what space I had - so nothing was set in stone there. I didn't have a pre-bought stacking system - so everything was different shapes and sizes - along with my shelves and cupboard-tops. Sometimes they were in a certain enclosure for a long time - sometimes for only a short time. All I know is that no-one noticeably declanned within a short window of a tank move otherwise I would have paid more attention at swapping time.
My split tank was just under a 2ft and no shelves, and after an intro they spent at least a month in there to make sure I didn't disrupt the bond before moving them up into a larger one.
Breeding pairs were different - but none of them ever declanned - they were always unpaired.
Those I remember specifically that people declanned in I will also add to the original post as and when I go back to it - most likely in pieces. One I can think of now was the 8 unrelated males - in a 4ft, and very deep, layered tank with no topper.
Sorry.
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Post by Markpd on Jan 18, 2021 11:45:37 GMT -8
Never mind about cage sizes, that's the icing . No need to apologise betty, whatever data you can provide will be useful . Shooting star No worries, thanks for LMK anyway. How many gerbils have you got btw?
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Post by beachbumgerbils on Jan 19, 2021 6:29:09 GMT -8
I am really just beginning my foray into serious gerbil breeding, so I don't have a ton for you.
In the past as just pets I have had 2 separate male trios (3 brothers, then father and 2 sons) that lived in a 40 gallon breeder aquarium with no issues. Each clan stayed intact until death.
More recently I have had a couple of declans as I manage more gerbils...
Clan size : 3 Whether related (and how) or not : adopted with little information, but one was much smaller than the other 2 and then grew to normal size, so I suspect he was several weeks younger Gender(s) : males Age at beginning of clan : estimate based on size...2 were probably 12-16 weeks, 1 was probably about 8 weeks Age at end of clan : approx. 7 months old - pretty epic declan that resulted in an amputated tail for the youngest Cage size: 40 gallon breeder
Clan size : 3 Whether related (and how) or not : 2 purchased at the same time from pet store, 1 purchased at a different pet store Gender(s) : male Age at beginning of clan : approx 10 weeks based on weight, all the same size Age at end of clan : 5 months - small tussle that did end in a bit blood, so separated Cage size: 40 gallon breeder
Clan size 6 Whether related (and how) or not : mother and 5 daughters Gender(s) : female Age at beginning of clan : mother unknown (<1 year), 2 daughters 3 weeks, 3 daughters 8 weeks Age at end of clan : declan happened after approx 2 months, as older daughters hit maturity Cage size: 40 gallon breeder
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Post by tanzanyte on Jan 30, 2021 11:51:30 GMT -8
Clan size: 2 Relation: sisters Gender: female Age at beginning of clan: 8 weeks old Age at end of clan: 3 years due to sister dying of tumour Cage size: 110l and additional permanent access play area 210cm x 110cm Health issues: 1) Internal tumour age 2 years 11 months // 2) Kidney disease began at 2 years 7 months
I've also added health problems in case this has any bearing on possible declans.
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Post by Markpd on Jan 30, 2021 19:08:06 GMT -8
Yea useful info, thanks And thanks to beachbumgerbils too.
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Post by michaeljack on Feb 12, 2021 19:17:19 GMT -8
Hi Markpd, thanks for the invite to respond. Honestly, my clans are frequently mixed up, interconnected, and rearranged. All, except for one case, are moved about as a result of color objectives (I have about 13 breeder pairs/trios; a clan of 8 teen boys awaiting first mates; a clan of 2-3 month-old mixed gender (25 members) under color-changing observation; and a new clan of 23 recently weaned. If a pair/trio produces what I'm looking for, then they remain paired longer, but no one, except my wife's pair, so far, has been united for more than three months. In a few instances I'll split a pair, similar to Shooting Star's method, keeping like gendered youngsters with them. That is generally because I don't want that pair to create particular colors but want them to be in a "family" unit for awhile. In the exceptional aforementioned case: my granddaughter and I had three well-seasoned sibling matriarchs who would absolutely have nothing to do with reclanning after living together 3-5 years.
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