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Post by ps25 on May 5, 2021 14:25:09 GMT -8
Unfortunately, I can add details of another declan Two brothers (same litter), 2 years old. Kept together since birth in a 20g tank with topper. Its the first time I've ever had a pair declan and I've still no idea what triggered it. Never saw any signs of a problem with them, no illness that I know of, no changes to their environment. Its a total mystery, that only the two of them will ever understand :-(
Clan size - 2 Relationship - brothers Age at beginning of clan - since birth Age at end of clan - 2yrs Cage size - 20g+topper Declanned? - yes Aggravating factor(s) - unknown
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jewels1171
Member
Somewhat new to gerbils, but have learned a lot!
Posts: 118
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Post by jewels1171 on May 5, 2021 18:38:53 GMT -8
My gerbils have fought before, and only the females. For breeding, males and females have been very easy to bond. My boys have been great, no fighting, except for a father and his baby boys I tried bonding with him. I’ve had females that ended up losing tail tips from either declanning or it maybe was the bad divider. We have learned since then. Males are generally better for bonding.
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Post by Markpd on May 6, 2021 3:18:46 GMT -8
ps25 Sorry to hear that, very unusual for 2 brothers to fall out from what I hear, I guess you got unlucky But thanks for the reply, still useful information! jewels1171 Got any details on those declans and the never declans? (or have you already and I've forgotten? lol ).
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jewels1171
Member
Somewhat new to gerbils, but have learned a lot!
Posts: 118
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Post by jewels1171 on May 6, 2021 12:42:23 GMT -8
My boys are very good, they never bite or nip each other, and my declanning females had bit, fought, attacked, and chased each other’s tails many times, then I got rid of them to someone who was going to be able to deal with that way better than me lol. I’m bad at explaining certain stuff so I hope that helps
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Post by Markpd on May 6, 2021 13:14:32 GMT -8
Ah ok, lol , well as per the op I was after the age they declanned, cage size, and whether related or not, at what age did they 1st live together?
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jewels1171
Member
Somewhat new to gerbils, but have learned a lot!
Posts: 118
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Post by jewels1171 on May 6, 2021 13:23:23 GMT -8
They were like a year or so, one was the daughter and like a few months old, and she bit her moms tail off! Shame on her.
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Post by Thelodar on May 6, 2021 14:30:26 GMT -8
I had two pairs of gerbils as a child (plus one loner) but I don't want to comment too much on them as I was very young and it's possible I wouldn't have even known they were fighting if they were. What I will say is they both lived in the equivalent of a ten gallon tank (first pair lived in a cage of about that size, second pair started in that cage but moved to a 10 gallon tank after my cats degloved their tails through the cage bars). Bedding was shallow. With one of the pairs I did discover one gerbil dead with it's stomach ripped open. There wasn't blood on the other gerbil or blood around the enclosure so we assumed (and hoped) that the ripping open happened after death. But as far as I could tell at the time everyone got along swimmingly. Both pairs were female purchased from a pet store, and lived about 3 years. I can give more detail on the gerbils I've had as an adult... 1. Theo, Logan, Darwin- Males adopted from an animal shelter, originally from an out of control breeder situation. Not 100% sure of age when purchased, but I think they filled out while I had them, so probably pretty young. Already together at purchase but don't know how they came to be that way. They lived in a 20 gallon for about 2 years, then moved to a 40 gallon. They declanned about a month later, a few days after cleaning the tank (or potentially immediately after, I found the scabs a few days after cleaning). The fight was between Logan and Darwin. While inspecting everyone for fight wounds I found out Theo was emaciated which led to the discovery that he was slowly starving from missing teeth. I did not separate them. After getting Theo's overgrown lower teeth trimmed and feeding him a soft food diet, he regained health. Then Theo and Logan got into a fight. Logan was removed and lived on his own going forward and Theo and Darwin lived out the rest of their days together in the 40 gallon. Lots of factors going on obviously. I think the primary cause of the declan was Theo's illness. I do think I would have noticed it sooner in the 20 gallon as they were more visible, but I don't think they would have declanned at that point if Theo had been healthy.
Clan size - 3 Relationship - unknown Gender(s) - male Age at beginning of clan - uncertain, but pre-adult Age at end of clan - approx 2 1/4 - 2 1/2yrs Time together - ~2 yrs
Cage size - 20g 2yrs, 40g 1mth Declanned? - yes
Aggravating factor - 1 gerbil weak due to teeth problems and weight loss
Next pair was Mowgli and Baloo, males. Mowgli was a pup and Baloo was a senior he had been recently paired with. Baloo was from a rescue situation, Mowgli was from a breeder. The breeder paired them and adopted them out. They lived in the 40 gallon tank together. I always thought Mowgli was rather pushy/mean with Baloo but they never fought beyond minor harmless scuffles, generally Mowgli guarding food. They were together for just under a year when Baloo passed away. Mowgli was repaired...
Clan size - 2 Relationship - unrelated Gender(s) - male Ages at beginning of clan - senior adult and pup Time together/Age at end of clan - together until the senior one died (estimated at 2 3/4 yrs old) Cage size - 40g Declanned? - no
Group three was Mowgli, Seamus, and Liam. Mowgli was quickly paired with the two male pups, just a week split I think. Pups were from a breeder, only 5 or 6 weeks old. They got along great. They lived in a 20 gallon. Seamus passed away unexpectedly at 8 months old. Liam and Mowgli lived together with no issues until Liam was 2 years old (Mowgli was 3). Then one night I caught Mowgli intensely chasing Liam around the tank. It seemed like it would start whenever Liam approached the sleeping area, then Mowgli would aggressively chase for some time before eventually cornering Liam and walking away. If Liam tried to leave the corner before Mowgli got all the way back to the nest Mowgli would start chasing again. I actually left them overnight, but it was still happening in the morning (poor Liam was in a little ball in that corner) so I set up a split tank with plans to try them together again. Once the split was in Liam began showing very violent aggression through the divider (none from Mowgli surprisingly). I guess that awful night left an impression. After 3 or 4 days I decided not to bother and split them permanently. Mowgli remained alone due to age (though he ended up living another year). I have tried pairing Liam with other males and have failed. He was bred once and got along fine with the female while they were together.
(Post Seamus's early death)
Clan size - 2 Relationship - unrelated Gender(s) - male Age at beginning of clan - ~6 weeks, ~1yr Age at end of clan - 2yrs and 3 yrs
Time together - ~2 yrs Cage size - 20g Declanned - yes Aggravating factor - unknown
Fourth pair was Wren and Raven, two young females (maybe 4 months old when I got them). They were siblings from the pet store. They lived together in the 40 gallon and got along great. Wren died when she was about 1.5 years old, possibly from a stroke. Not entirely sure.
Clan size - 2 Relationship - sisters Age at beginning of clan - est. 4 mths Age at end of clan - 1.5yrs Time together - since birth ~1.5 yrs
Cage size - 40g Declanned? - no
Fifth pair was Raven and Piper, females. After Wren's death I bought Piper from a pet store. She was young, probably around 4 months old. I did a 2 week split and they went together easily. They lived in the 40 gallon. They got along great. Raven died about a year later. Piper was then bred with Liam but there were no females for Piper to stay with.
Clan size - 2 Relationship - unrelated Gender(s) - females Age at beginning of clan - est. 4 mths, 1 1/2 yrs Age at end of clan - ~1 1/4 yrs, 2 1/2 yrs
Time together - ~1yr
Cage size - 40g Declanned? - no
Sixth pair. Piper and Peggy. I purchased Peggy through a rehoming site. She and her family had been rescued off of craigslist from an overwhelmed breeding situation. I did a very long split (7 weeks) and they were paired. They loved each other. They lived in a 20 gallon. Unfortunately Piper passed away a couple of months ago not long after turning two.
Clan size - 2 Relationship - unrelated Gender(s) - females Age at beginning of clan - ?, ? Age at end of clan - ?, ~2 yrs Time together - ?
Cage size - 20g Declanned? - no
Seventh pair. Eliza and Felicity, females. I purchased them as young pups (like 6 weeks old) in hopes of pairing with Piper (this was before getting Peggy) but due to various delays that pushed off the intro they became too old and the intro failed. They lived in a 20 gallon for a while but were moved into the 40 gallon in the last few months because they are my only pair at the moment, everyone else is single. Felicity was dominant initially, when they were young, but has some health issues (or something) and Eliza appears to be dominant at the moment. A while back, when Felicity was still dominant, I had to stop having them out in the playpen as Felicity would become aggressive towards Eliza, but no issues in their tank. Lately I have noticed some pushiness from Eliza towards Felicity, but no fighting or chasing. Honestly I don't think Felicity is capable of fighting at the moment, or of running away in any coordinated fashion. If her health ever fully recovers I imagine there could be a declan.
Still together currentlyClan size - 2 Relationship - Gender(s) - females Age at beginning of clan - ~6wks Age at end of clan -
Time together -
Cage size - 20g > 40g Declanned? - not yet!
Currently I have Peggy and male named Edgar together for breeding in a 20 gallon. They love each other very much. Peggy is the most outwardly affectionate (towards other gerbils) gerbil I've ever met. She was with Piper and is with Edgar. I wonder if growing up in a large clan like she did (she was in a tank with around 20 other gerbils) made her social skills extra good.
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Post by Markpd on May 7, 2021 11:06:09 GMT -8
Wow! Thanks for the detailed report . And funny, I have to limit 1 of my boys time in the sandpen otherwise they get tetchy with each other! Have you taken Felicity to the vets? With 20 gerbils!? Wow! Would loved to have seen that! (but would not want to do that myself!)
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Post by londongerbils on Jun 5, 2021 0:14:38 GMT -8
Just an interesting point to add here. I don’t know whether this is being taken into account or not, but can we include failed introductions? Does that count as a de clan or just two gerbils that didn’t clan in the first place? I’ve had a failed introduction recently. Two females, lived happily for 2 weeks then a few bad signs started to emerge, so I considered it a failed introduction.
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Post by Markpd on Jun 18, 2021 10:35:50 GMT -8
A fair question, but yea that's a failed intro rather than a declan.
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Post by LilyandDaisy on Oct 26, 2021 11:37:53 GMT -8
Just remembered I have another one to add now. Unrelated female and neutered male, introduced when the female was over a year old and the neutered male probably a little under a year. The female died aged somewhere between 2.5 and 3 years. They started in a 75x45cm and 37cm high tank but were later moved* to a 120x42cm and 45cm high tank. A small topper was added a couple of months before the female died. *One of the reasons they were moved is because they were very unhappy in the smaller tank. They were very argumentative and almost couldn't walk past each other without having a small squabble. Once moved to the larger tank they calmed down and were a fairly peaceful pair after that. I found this intriguing as this is the reverse of what is sometimes claimed about gerbils and larger tanks.
Added in a later requirement for a table
Clan size - 2 Relationship - unrelated Gender(s) - neutered male, female Age at beginning of clan - M <1yr old, F 1+yr old Age at end of clan - F 2.5-3 yrs old And/or, time together - 1.5+yrs Cage size - 75x45x37 cm tank > 120x42x45cm tank (a couple of months) Declanned? - no
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Post by Markpd on Nov 2, 2021 12:42:50 GMT -8
Interesting to hear how they got on in a small tank vs a big one. And thanks for the added case , strangely I didn't get notified of your reply here in the 'participated' button at the top right, I saw it highlighted in the list of my threads when I was looking for another thread. I guess I should add my boys to this thread now seeing as they've declanned! Clan size - 2 Relationship - brothers Gender - male Age at beginning of clan - since birth Age at end of clan - 16mths (at 2nd and final declan) Cage size - 120x50x50cm, approx 1/2 depth in bedding Declanned - yes
They're now living in a permanent split, 1 month on to date, and they seem to be fine living side by side.
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Post by Markpd on Nov 14, 2021 8:45:55 GMT -8
And at last I can stick my thread
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Post by zb on Nov 15, 2021 5:56:06 GMT -8
Hi markpd
Clan size - 2 Relationship - brothers Age at beginning of clan - from birth Age at end of clan - 1.5 yrs Cage size - 75x50x100 cm Declanned? - yes Aggravating factor(s) - unknown
I haven’t been on here for ages but I think you might remember me as we both got our gerbils from the same breeder. I am sad to report my two brothers had a huge fight and de-clanned this weekend. I was sorry to come on here and see yours have recently too. The brothers are 18 months old now and had always lived happily in their 75x50x100 gerbilarium (part tank part cage topper with wooden floors and ladders.) I saw them scuffling a bit at 6pm on Saturday and didn’t think much of it - distracted them by walking over to the cage and talking to them and they went their separate ways. At 10pm I looked in on them before going up to bed and was horrified to find them both drenched in blood with bite marks around their necks, it was awful, I wasn’t sure either was going to survive. Hubby and I made a makeshift divide out of thick cardboard with glass from a picture frame inbetween so they can’t get to each other. We are currently looking at getting a bit of Perspex cut to size as a permanent solution. A de-clan was always my fear and I’m not prepared to risk it happening again by attempting to reintroduce them to each other or other gerbils. Amazingly both boys looked much better Sunday morning, eating and drinking fine and wounds not as big as they first looked once they had cleaned the blood off a bit. I have applied some powder I got from the pet shop which I hope will help them avoid infection. Now buying a second wheel etc etc. Really really sad that they’ll now both have to live alone but glad they were evenly matched enough that one didn’t kill the other. Ziggy is a lot bigger than Bruno and seemed more dominant, in the past we have seen Ziggy overgroom Bruno a little but nothing else. I think Bruno may have challenged him but failed to overthrow. There were no changes to the status quo that I can think of - not a clean out, no new toys or foods or smells. I feel so sad about it, I look after them but officially they’re my children’s pets and they used to love watching them play together so much. It seems to me now that is obviously is quite common, I always thought it was rare and particularly chose two boys who were siblings thinking it was very unlikely to happen 😫
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Post by Markpd on Nov 15, 2021 10:32:03 GMT -8
Hi, yes I do remember, I tried to find out if our gerbils were related, but I don't think you knew their parents name? Anyway... Sorry to hear your 2 boys fell out too , many parallels with my 2 boys, including being evenly matched (thankfully I guess, otherwise who knows what the victor would've done?!). And yea it's horrible to find them in such a state I quite understand that you wouldn't want to attempt a re-intro, and besides most people will advise against it if blood has been drawn, as it's apparently very unlikely to work. Btw, just because both our boys declanned doesn't mean that it commonly happens, from what I've read it is particularly rare between brothers, but that doesn't mean it can't! We got unlucky, unless our breeder has a line of gerbils which are more likely to fight??, but that seems unlikely, and we'd have no way to know anyway. Just speculation on my part. 1 thing I'd like to say about your perspex divider is that they won't be able to sniff and nose touch through it of course. Perhaps that's a good thing if they're really hostile to each other? But for my boys, from the next day they regularly sniffed and nose touched each other, my hope is that will be enough social contact for them not to get lonely (so far so good). But your boys won't be able to do that with a solid divider. (I already had a mesh divider set up, so I just quickly placed that in, and then they got on fine separated). And as for how well a permanent split pair get on, their seems to be no real data on it! (at least here anyway). Interesting that our boys were very similar ages when it happened.... Thanks for the info and adding to the declann thread anyway. Keep in touch
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