Burmese gerbils

[pixie22]

I recently adopted a beautiful Burmese female. I’m in love with her color and would love to get lots of Burmese pups out of her. I have two options of who I could pair her with and I’m curious what you all would suggest.
The first option is a colorpoint nutmeg male. I’ve read that pairing her with a male this color would produce more Burmese. What other colors could this combo produce, or would I be getting all Burmese babies?
The second option is a pied black male. His mom is my pied Burmese and his dad is a black. Would his genetics for black overpower the Burmese and create more black and pied black babies? Or would this create Burmese and pied Burmese babies? I LOVE pied Burmese babies as well, so getting some that color would be amazing. What colors would this pair produce?
I’d love any advice to which pairing would work best for me to get the biggest ratio of Burmese or pied Burmese babies! Thanks!

[betty]

Both decent choices pixie22!

So, (unless you know more about the parents and siblings of the mother) we can only say that:

The CP Nutmeg would be most likely: aa c*c* ee P* U*
Without knowing the history of the mum (and therefore her hidden gene potential) we could only say for sure that she would produce only colourpoint pups - but without knowing for sure what the CP Nut was carrying in the c department - they could produce for sure Burmese - and possibly Siamese. Possibly 100% Burmese. If the female carries a single recessive e - then 50% of the pups could be CP Nuts though.

Similarly, if they both carry a, p, or uw^d - then your ratio of Burmese pups starts to be drastically reduced as you will get more colours in the mix.

If the female doesn't carry an e - then the percentage of Burmese (and possibly Siamese) will stay higher of course; and if one or both of them doesn't carry p or uw^d you are going to get more and more Burmese(Siamese) in each litter.

The Black would be most likely: aa Cc^chm E* P* U*
Without knowing the history of the mum (and therefore her hidden gene potential) we could only say that she would defo produce 50/50 Black and Burmese. There is the possibility that the entire litter would be just Black and Burmese - with around half of them being spotted.

Both of them would have to have the same recessive gene to create anything else (so both would have to have p to produce pink-eyed colours, or both would have to have e to produce nutmeg/honey colours). If only one carries the recessive, this first generation of pups still won't show those colours.


Without knowing more about mum (or potential dad) it is almost at a stalemate - but on face value (minus an e) only the CP Nut can offer a possible 100% Burmese offering. You will ALWAYS get Black pups with the Black dad because a Burmese is genetically a colourpoint Black - same genes.



*Both options would allow for PEWs (only if both parents carry the same recessive p gene of course), but there is more chance of trapping the PEW with the CP Nutmeg as you will always have the cp genes that create it - you can't not have double cp.

[pixie22]

Jan 28, 2021 18:01:57 GMT -8 betty said:

Both decent choices pixie22!

So, (unless you know more about the parents and siblings of the mother) we can only say that:

The CP Nutmeg would be most likely: aa c*c* ee P* U*
Without knowing the history of the mum (and therefore her hidden gene potential) we could only say for sure that she would produce only colourpoint pups - but without knowing for sure what the CP Nut was carrying in the c department - they could produce for sure Burmese - and possibly Siamese. Possibly 100% Burmese. If the female carries a single recessive e - then 50% of the pups could be CP Nuts though.

Similarly, if they both carry a, p, or uw^d - then your ratio of Burmese pups starts to be drastically reduced as you will get more colours in the mix.

If the female doesn't carry an e - then the percentage of Burmese (and possibly Siamese) will stay higher of course; and if one or both of them doesn't carry p or uw^d you are going to get more and more Burmese(Siamese) in each litter.

The Black would be most likely: aa Cc^chm E* P* U*
Without knowing the history of the mum (and therefore her hidden gene potential) we could only say that she would defo produce 50/50 Black and Burmese. There is the possibility that the entire litter would be just Black and Burmese - with around half of them being spotted.

Both of them would have to have the same recessive gene to create anything else (so both would have to have p to produce pink-eyed colours, or both would have to have e to produce nutmeg/honey colours). If only one carries the recessive, this first generation of pups still won't show those colours.


Without knowing more about mum (or potential dad) it is almost at a stalemate - but on face value (minus an e) only the CP Nut can offer a possible 100% Burmese offering. You will ALWAYS get Black pups with the Black dad because a Burmese is genetically a colourpoint Black - same genes.



*Both options would allow for PEWs (only if both parents carry the same recessive p gene of course), but there is more chance of trapping the PEW with the CP Nutmeg as you will always have the cp genes that create it - you can't not have double cp.

Thanks for the help! Here’s a bit more info if this helps. To my knowledge, the Burmese’s parents are both also Burmese but I couldn’t get a straight answer from the breeders. Says she’s from a “tan lineage” but I think the person I was talking to wasn’t the one who deals with the gerbils.
As far as the colorpoint male goes, his dad is an Argentine Golden and his mom is also a colorpoint nutmeg. His dads genetics from what I think I’ve figured out is AaCc[chm]EeG-pp and I think his moms is aa- c[chm]c[chm] Ee G- P. His siblings have been Argentine goldens, colorpoint nutmegs, and what I think are nutmegs and honey creams.
For the pied black male, his siblings have always been either black or pied black. Mom looks like she’s aa c[chm]c[chm] E- G- P, and she has a sister who’s a colorpoint nutmeg.

[pixie22]

I’m fine with getting some other colors I’m the mix of their litters, but I’d like to get Burmese and some Siamese would be wonderful too. I’d just like to avoid getting more blacks, colorpoint nutmegs, and pew if possible since I already have pairs producing lots of those.
So I guess whatever will give me the most Burmese, Siamese, or spotted while giving me the least pure black, colorpoint nutmeg, and pew.

[betty]

Great work finding out more it all helps!

So mum - we shall assume she has only the standard Burmese genes - as with only parents info, none of the 'hidden' genes are obbviously exposed - so mum will for now at least reamin just aa c[chm]c[chm] Ee P* Uw*. (I have changed your G for a Uw as the gene in gerbils was renamed some time ago - but still shows on older or some European websites a G/g).

Black Male - Looks like he would be only confirmed as aa Cc[chm] E* P* Uw* for now. His dad is most likely CC if he didn't allow any colourpoint parents from a Burmese mum - but that doesn't directly affect the Black male's genes anyway. His mum could well have carried a recessive e (with a couble ee sibling) - and so there is a slim chance it could have then passed to the Black.

CP Nutmeg Male - looks like he can only be assumed to be aa c[chm]c* ee P* Uw* (even though I have left one of those c* - it would most likely also be a chm). However, his father could not be an Argente Golden - as they require CC - a combination that will never produce colourpoint young. Therefore if he was actually an Argente and very ginger-looking - he would have to be an Argente Fawn (Cc[chm]). Or, if they are really bold ginger with white tummies - could they be (Light)Red-Eyed Honeys instead - which would explain all the sibling honeys and nutmegs much better (two ee parents Nutmeg mum and Honey dad would ONLY produce ee offspring)?


To increase Burmese and Siamese in general you need to look at reducing pink-eyes completely from the line - but to remove the Blacks you would need to only breed cps (Burmese and Siamese are genetically Black gerbils). You can test breed for the hidden pink-eye genes, but it may produce PEWs in the process (just don't keep them).

To remove cp nutmegs you need to eliminate or reduce the e genes in there - and all the offpring from the CP Nutmeg will have an e and can pass it on their own offspring down the line. You can test breed for e in the Black.

Spotted will only come from a spotted parent - so if you have a single spotted parent you will roughly get 50% spotted offspring whatever their colour. No spotted parents = no spotted babies.

[pixie22]

Ok, very interesting! I’m very surprised to hear that basil (the one I thought was an argente Golden) might not be. He’s paired with the colorpoint nutmeg mom and produces colorpoint nutmegs often. Here’s a picture of him, I’d be interested to know his actual color. And does this mean his babies are also not Argentine goldens? He has red eyes but none of his babies have ever had red eyes, so I guess that means the babies aren’t Argentine goldens anyway. Is there a way for me to attach photos of him?

Jan 29, 2021 8:29:03 GMT -8 betty said:

Great work finding out more it all helps!

So mum - we shall assume she has only the standard Burmese genes - as with only parents info, none of the 'hidden' genes are obbviously exposed - so mum will for now at least reamin just aa c[chm]c[chm] Ee P* Uw*. (I have changed your G for a Uw as the gene in gerbils was renamed some time ago - but still shows on older or some European websites a G/g).

Black Male - Looks like he would be only confirmed as aa Cc[chm] E* P* Uw* for now. His dad is most likely CC if he didn't allow any colourpoint parents from a Burmese mum - but that doesn't directly affect the Black male's genes anyway. His mum could well have carried a recessive e (with a couble ee sibling) - and so there is a slim chance it could have then passed to the Black.

CP Nutmeg Male - looks like he can only be assumed to be aa c[chm]c* ee P* Uw* (even though I have left one of those c* - it would most likely also be a chm). However, his father could not be an Argente Golden - as they require CC - a combination that will never produce colourpoint young. Therefore if he was actually an Argente and very ginger-looking - he would have to be an Argente Fawn (Cc[chm]). Or, if they are really bold ginger with white tummies - could they be (Light)Red-Eyed Honeys instead - which would explain all the sibling honeys and nutmegs much better (two ee parents Nutmeg mum and Honey dad would ONLY produce ee offspring)?


To increase Burmese and Siamese in general you need to look at reducing pink-eyes completely from the line - but to remove the Blacks you would need to only breed cps (Burmese and Siamese are genetically Black gerbils). You can test breed for the hidden pink-eye genes, but it may produce PEWs in the process (just don't keep them).

To remove cp nutmegs you need to eliminate or reduce the e genes in there - and all the offpring from the CP Nutmeg will have an e and can pass it on their own offspring down the line. You can test breed for e in the Black.

Spotted will only come from a spotted parent - so if you have a single spotted parent you will roughly get 50% spotted offspring whatever their colour. No spotted parents = no spotted babies.

[betty]

If he produced cps then he has a cp gene himself - which rules out him being a 'golden' for sure (goldens are CC only).

And when bred to a full colourpoint - he can't have 'golden' pups either as only he has a C - the cp mum won't have one as she is cc - so no babies can be CC either.

Any argente HAS to have red eyes - so this means your pups certainly aren't argentes anyway - even if the above weren't true already.

However, this means FOR SURE that his current partner is PP - the absolutely perfect colourpoint gerbil. With PP, she will NEVER be able to produce PEWs whoever she is paired with.