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Post by Warren C on Mar 11, 2021 21:14:02 GMT -8
Hi, We purchased three male gerbils in December of 2017 they've lived together in the same habitat until approximately December when one of the gerbils passed away. The three brothers had always gotten along very well and there was very little overt aggression.
The gerbil that passed away was one of the more dominant of the three and we've been noticing that recently the two gerbils that are left have been coming into more and more conflict.
Milky who is bigger and has tended to be more dominant has recently been chasing Cinnamon around at times relentlessly and continuously trying to mount him. At the same time the more submissive gerbil Cinnamon has become more assertive and more aggressive and in the last week quite often going at Milky. I've noticed that quite often cinnamon is the one who is initiating aggressive behavior.
A few times more recently cinnamon has pinned milky and milky fought back. Yesterday they were really going at each other and eventually after they separated they were both heaving with adrenaline I assume.
Today they were in a shelter area and I heard a bit of activity. When they came out from the shelter milky was bleeding from just under the eye. It was a bit upsetting to see the blood.
Because it has been a pattern of escalation I've been worried that they're going to both end up seriously hurting the other. A temporarily separated them into two separate habitats but I'm really unsure of what to do next or if it's even a good idea to separate them.
Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.
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Post by yeti218 on Mar 11, 2021 21:35:17 GMT -8
You definitely did the right thing separating them. You could potentially try a split cage method as a way to reintroduce them, but usually if blood is drawn its usually considered a sign that a reintroduction will not be successful.
Hopefully some more experienced owners will chime in, but separating them was definitely the right choice.
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Post by yeti218 on Mar 11, 2021 22:07:39 GMT -8
It sounds like this declan was caused by losing the boss gerbils, the others couldnt peacefully decide who was next in line.
Sometimes as gerbils age if one gets sick it can lead to them picking on each other as well. Are either showing signs of illness?
Sometimes declans can be caused by environmental changes, new smells, new pets etc, but it doesnt sound like thats what happened here.
Based on what I know from reading other stories on this forum (you are not alone, a lot of people have posted similar threads in the "behaviour and introducing gerbils" section), I think you should plan to keep these guys permanently separated.
If they were younger youd likely be looking into getting some new friends for them so they don't get lonely. You may still do that if you like, but given their age you could also just keep them alone and give them extra enrichement and human interaction. A lot of older gerbils are fine with this in their golden years.
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Post by Warren C on Mar 11, 2021 22:21:23 GMT -8
Thanks for the feedback, it was fairly traumatic to see the bright red blood on white fur and I thought it would probably just keep getting worse.
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Post by betty on Mar 12, 2021 7:46:19 GMT -8
Such a shame - but face to face fighting isn't easily resolved as they are both determined to 'win' - so yes, splitting them up is the safest thing. Even if only temporarily (say a month or so) before trying a split again.
After a break, they will have had time to settle back down into a new character (their character in the trio was determined by the other gerbils of course not necessarily their own choice). Then, with these 'new' characters in place - they may well accept each other in a full split. Even if they still don't get on after a split - they will both be unharmed anyway - so can then continue living apart.
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Post by warrenc on Mar 12, 2021 13:09:50 GMT -8
Thanks Betty
I have them in two separate tanks ( one tank is considerably smaller than the other - I just happened to have the smaller one in storage with no plans to use it ). By a full split do you mean living in the same tank but divided by mesh so they don't have physical contact ? I think I would need to rig it so that they get equal amount of living space.
What do you think about moving them back and forth between the two sides of the split ( never in the same half at the same time together ) ? And if they show signs of not wanting to kill each other and they sleep near each other would you ever recommend trying to get them back together ? I have seen on the forum that drawing blood is a measure of unlikelihood that they could coexist - seems strange after 3 years of peaceful coexisting. Having them not be able to be together is the saddest part of the situation.
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Post by betty on Mar 13, 2021 4:24:03 GMT -8
Well, just remember Warrenc - that it isn't sad for them right now. Gerbils don't think the same way as us. At least one of your gerbils is REALLY GLAD to be alone right now - possibly both of them.
Gerbils live very different lives to humans - and looking like they coexist doesn't mean that they are coexisting at all. Just like at work or school - you act differently around different people to keep the peace - and gerbils do the same.
However, for gerbils - being the boss comes with more than just control - it is for breeding rights, as important to them as money is to some of us.
And remember - they don't want to get into a fight - they want to scare the other one off (like hoping that annoying person at work will just leave already). But they are stuck in the same place - noone can leave.
The dominant gerbil has to keep control of the other gerbil with threats based on how cheeky the other one is. So if they are siblings often the weaker one couldn't care less about the boss wanting to be the boss and just ignores them - giving them compliments and first choice of the best food and sleeping places to have a quiet life. All is well.
However, sometimes there isn't such a balance and the one being all shy and quiet is hating every minute and can't WAIT to overthrow the boss and get all the best food. But if they make a move too soon - they will lose - and noone wants to lose. So they wait.
As soon as they see a weakness in the existing boss - they take their chance. If they were wrong they get beaten up - if they were right - the boss gets beaten up. Nobody wins when you are stuck in the same enclosure.
This is why going back together while they are both still thinking they could be the boss never works. A fight is fresh in their minds and both still want to be the boss of THAT clan. So, if they settle down alone - they ARE both the boss or their own new clan things change - they mellow. And it can happen that as they mature a bit on their own (and get a bit older) they think - well perhaps being together was actually better after all?
I have split together many many old gerbils who couldn't care less about fighting - even if they were a decalnner before. They just say 'hi' and fall asleep side by side.
Not always though - some are feisty to the end!
As for 'splits' - there is only one type of split tank introduction (where they are in a small virtually empty tank with a (removeable) wire divide where you switch sides 3 times aday until you are confident they are friends and then you remove the divide from the tank (not the gerbils) to do their first contact intro).
I think you are reading about both permanent splits (where two gerbils live permanently in a large enclosure that is always and permanently divided with wire - where these two gerbils are never intending to live with each other again.) and an introductory split (where two gerbils live temporarily in a small enclosure that is divided with a totally removeable wire screen with the intention of making them friends again by swapping sides over a week or two.)
There are variations of that split process where the tank might be larger, have more in it, might swap them less time, might be a cage instead of a divide, etc, but a full split is the most thorough - less distracted version. There is success with many types, but we tend to recommend the simplest one (most boring-to-gerbils-one) as for now that seems to have the fasted -and safest - results.
We are investigating the others where we can so too where the flexibility can be - so it is up to you how strict you are and how your gerbils react to each other. Just that you will only get one chance at this really with your guys - so I personally would always suggest the way that is most likely to give the best long-term result for the gerbils, rather than just better while they are in the split. But everyone chooses their own way.
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Post by warrenc on Mar 14, 2021 12:46:09 GMT -8
Thanks for a great explanation Betty.
The human family here is definitely the saddest group :-) Milky and Cinnie are calmly living apart - although it appears their activity level is very low which gives the appearance of despondency. Milky's bite damage near his eye appears to have healed up.
Cinnie won't drink out of the brand new water bottle we bought for him, but readily drinks from the old one when we hold it for him in his new enclosure. Trying to find an identical one to the original we have had for 3 years.
Can you just clarify one thing:
"I have split together many many old gerbils who couldn't care less about fighting - even if they were a declanner before. They just say 'hi' and fall asleep side by side."
Are you saying that they fall asleep side by side on opposite sides of the mesh divider ?
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Post by betty on Mar 14, 2021 15:12:54 GMT -8
Ha ha - yes. Often it is only the humans who are most sad in these declans.
Additionally though - the period leading up to a declan is incredibly stressful for some gerbils - they are basically being really bullied or feel incredibly threatened - sometimes panting from fear. I often notice after a declan - at least one of the gerbils is SO tired and just sleeps. I can't begin to imagine how stressful it must be to always expect to be beaten up even when they are being 'nice' to you when you have to sleep in the same nest. A bit like being around Neagan on TWD?
We will never truely know of course - but I always like to think that once they KNOW they are alone - they can finally stop stressing and sleep in peace.
And yes, for granny and grandad splits like that it was just pop them both on the staircase for me. No split.
I heard a breeder who I worked with who used to do amazing things with their gerbils bonding-wise. They showed me how much is possible if you understand gerbil behaviour and really watch them together. Anyway - they said they would often put older siblings (3+) back together after a life of whatever else they had done and were found to now be alone. They said they just literally placed them together in a small neutral space and kept them in sight all day. And often by bed time they were asleep together just like old friends.
Obvs at first I thought they were just lucky - but one day I ended up with two siblings both 3+ and I tried it myself on the stairs (not a cage - as I thought I would have more control if it went wrong). And anyway - they did.
They just sniffed each other, and carried on like 'whatever'. I then moved them into an open-topped small tank and it just got better. By the morning I was sure they had remembered each other/accepted their fate. I moved them into a normal giant tank within a few days (somthing I never feel confident to do after a normal split intro) and they lived together for another year or so - and even though they both get very ill, they stayed besties to the end. From that point on I did it with all my left-over oldies who were related.
I love learning from more experienced people - even though I am still super cautious for some many things and NEVER try new things myself. But if it has been working for someone for years - there must be something in it, right, no matter the usual rules?
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