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Post by ryarianne on Mar 22, 2021 16:39:47 GMT -8
Hey--my family and I are bout to adopt gerbils for the first time. We've found a well-reviewed independent pet store to get them from since no local shelters have any needing homes at this time, but this store has just 3 gerbils right now (3 males) and they came together from the breeder they got them from (they think they're siblings but aren't sure). I originally only planned on bringing home 2 since the max container space we have right now is a 20 gallon tank, and because, although I've owned lots of other pets in my life, I've never owned gerbils so I'm wanting to keep it simple and I read that just having 2 makes it highly unlikely they'll de-clan. But now I'm wondering if I am being cruel to leave 1 gerbil alone while I adopt the other 2. We go to get them this weekend, so I have a few days to decide--what would you all recommend a well-read, caring, but still novice (to gerbil care) like myself do in this situation? What's ultimately the kindest option--leaving him there to find another home but be lonely until/unless that happens, or bringing him into a home that's potentially too small with an inexperienced owner unfamiliar with warnings of de-clanning?
TIA for your input! I've been reading the forum since we decided to go the route of gerbil ownership a few weeks ago and have already learned so much from you all!
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Post by LilyandDaisy on Mar 22, 2021 16:58:52 GMT -8
First, I would check with the pet store would they would do with a lone gerbil. Would they introduce him to another pup, and would they know how to do that safely? If they can and will do that, I don't think it would be cruel to just buy two. However some pet stores will only sell a lone gerbil to live alone.
20 gallons is not a lot of space for 3, or even 2 really, but it's not the worst thing in the world. It would be better than a young gerbil having to live alone for life. I don't think it's cruel if they get time outside the tank free roaming or in a playpen. A topper would help a lot if you have vertical space.
I'm not sure on the exact odds of a male trio declanning but you are correct that it's higher than the rate for pairs. Obviously you would need to have a plan regarding housing if it were to happen, though that applies to a pair too since there's always some risk.
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Post by ryarianne on Mar 23, 2021 6:29:56 GMT -8
Thanks LilyandDaisy, I don't know why it didn't occur to me to ask them what they'd do with the lone one left but you're right, that should factor into the decision.
Still curious for other experience gerbil owners thoughts here!
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Post by yeti218 on Mar 23, 2021 9:49:16 GMT -8
So I've only had 1 pair of male gerbils, so I'm not an expert, but you asked for opinions, so here are mine.
As lilyanddaisy said, check with the store what they're going to do with the loner. If they're going to safely pair him, or adopt him out to a home who already has one gerbil (we often have people on here looking for single gerbils when one of their gerbils died and they want a companion for the other one), then I think it's fine to just take 2.
Trios are considered less stable than pairs, but if your getting gerbils you should at least be prepared to deal with a declan should it happen, regardless of whether you get a pair or a trio, since no clan is immune to declans.
Either way I think you should upgrade your tank. I know the u.s. minimum is 10 gallons per gerbil but it's pretty small after you've put their accessories in like proper sized wheel. Even if you get 2 I would look to upgrade.
I dont know where you live or what your situation is, but keep an eye on fb marketplace or gumtree/craigslist for used aquarium / terrariums. Or sometimes pet stores have sales.
If it were me, I'd take the 3. But I have a big tank and space in my house for large enclosures for small animals.
If the shop isnt going to make sure the loner gets to live with another gerbil, then I would recommend taking them all, and of course I suggest upgrading the tank in the nearish future and being prepared to deal with a declan anyway if you're going to have gerbils. If you just dont want 3 gerbils then I'd wait and keep looking.
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Post by PipSqueak on Mar 23, 2021 10:40:43 GMT -8
I agree that a 20 gallon tank is too small for 2 or 3 gerbils. It is also probably better to keep the 3 unless the store will pair the 3rd gerbil up with another line gerbil. If you do bring 3 home (or even 2) you can either get a bigger tank like a 40 gallon breeder or keep the 20 gallon but buy a tank topper or make one. The only problem with a topper is that one gerbil can claim the top while the other is at the bottom and that can result in declanning. I have a 29 gallon tank with the 10 gallon tank topper from PetCo which holds their food, water, wheel, and sand bath making more room for the bottom. So just getting a bigger tank would probably be a better idea. You can also DIY your own tank. Some diy tanks you can make is and Ikea Linmon cage out of the Ikea Linmon table tops: m.youtube.com/watch?v=Ocdcl-82ybEThe Linmon cage is tall and has over 800 sq inches and there is also a video for a lid that hinges open and latches closes. To make the cage would be around $50-$60. You can also make a lid for the Ikea Detolf and assemble without the shelves for a huge cage but it is very long and has legs where the cabinet would be laying down so you have to have the ends hanging off slightly. The cage is also not very tall so you would have to have little to no bedding where the wheel is and that limits you to bedding depth. m.youtube.com/watch?v=CSfugj0M46Qm.youtube.com/watch?v=SQXI8pgRhmAm.youtube.com/watch?v=UYzDeSBE1hI
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Post by Markpd on Mar 23, 2021 12:24:06 GMT -8
Re Detolf and wheel, a barrier can be put in so you can have decent depth bedding and have a wheel.
Oh, and welcome to the forum ryarianne
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Thea
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Posts: 1,012
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Post by Thea on Mar 23, 2021 13:59:34 GMT -8
Yes, welcome! I agree with the others, I've just read through I have a Detolf, and as Mark says it's fine having a wheel in there with deep enough bedding. I have a divider and as I have the lid resting on top instead of on the bars, it's around 15.5 inches tall so I can put a foot of bedding in no problem and have a wheel on the other side, maximum wheel is 11 inch but I don't have any problems with the depth! As LilyandDaisy said, perhaps you could get all three and keep them in there until you can get a bigger enclosure (you could possibly do something like a permanent play pen, but you'd have to make sure it was properly secure! I believe tanzanyte did at one point) ?
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Post by ryarianne on Mar 25, 2021 5:40:40 GMT -8
Thanks everyone. SO I have to admit I just bought this 20gallon long tank new on sale the other week as part of prepping for the gerbils, so I'm not inclined to discard it and build a new one, at least not right now! I thought that I'd also read several places that if you give too much space you increase risk of declanning as well, and that's why I thought 20gallon long would be perfect for 2.
It's so hard as a novice to navigate all the educated varying opinions of those with more experience! I've read 3 different books and dozens of forum posts, watched countless videos, and it seems like every strong case I see made for one position one place (like a vehement argument against scatter feeding in a gerbil care book I read last night) I find an equally solid argument in the other direction somewhere else. Ack!
Anyway, hopefully our soon-to-be-gerbil family members will work with me as my family figures it out together. I can't go for anything longer than the 20gallon long, but I can bring them out daily for safe and supervised playtime and investigate a cage topper, and I can inquire about the pet store's practices with solo gerbils. Appreciate all the ideas!
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Post by yeti218 on Mar 25, 2021 7:25:31 GMT -8
Giving them some out of tank playtime will definitely be a good thing, so its awesome that you're able to do that regularly. I think this will also help the gerbils bond with you which will be good for them socially, and good exercise and mental stimulation.
The idea that too large an enclosure causes declans is mostly considered to be bogus by gerbil people nowadays. The main things you want to avoid are things like multiple spaces linked together with only one small entrance, as this can make it too easy for a gerbil to decide to claim a space and defend it from another. I think there is some anecdotal evidence that suggests sometimes gerbils at early stages of declan can be forced back together if you make them spend more time together (sometimes by reducing space, but sometimes by changing set up of the tank or removing objects they fight over), but sometimes this is just delaying the inevitable, and I think that the benefits from giving them ample space for burrowing and enrichement far outweighs the dubious "risk" associated with larger tanks when considering their welfare.
I think a cage topper is also a good idea for you. Then you can put wheel, sandbath, water, etc, up there without it getting buried and give them lots of bedding to burrow in the tank. Someone else had mentioned, but if you dont have much floor space to give up, this is a great way to increase their space.
The scatter feeding vs bowl I think is a bit more of a preference with strong arguments either way. A bowl you can see how much they're eating and if they're selectively eating. It is possible that the boss gerbil bullies the others around a food bowl though, so worth keeping an eye on. Scatter feeding reduces the ability for a boss gerbil to bully the others for food access and it a nice bit of enrichment for them, but you cant be sure how much they're eating or if they're just picking out the good bits. So just do whichever you like and keep an eye to make sure its working well for them.
I always find my animal care changes as I get the animal and see how they act and learn more about them, and different things come up that I never thought of. It seems like you're doing a lot of research so I'm sure you'll do fine.
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Post by PipSqueak on Mar 25, 2021 8:39:52 GMT -8
I didn't have a ton of room for a large tank so instead of a 20 gallon tank I got a 29 gallon tank for my gerbils with a topper. Basically the 29 gallon is the square inches of a 20 gallon but taller. That makes more room for bedding and a wheel if you don't have a topper.
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Thea
Member
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Post by Thea on Mar 25, 2021 9:16:53 GMT -8
I think they are saying that they don't want to get a new one yet though because they've only just bought the 20 gallon
But that's a good point, maybe after the gerbils have grown a bit if you don't have a lot of room you could get something like a 29/30 gallon?
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Post by Markpd on Mar 25, 2021 10:47:25 GMT -8
Giving them some out of tank playtime will definitely be a good thing, so its awesome that you're able to do that regularly. I think this will also help the gerbils bond with you which will be good for them socially, and good exercise and mental stimulation. The idea that too large an enclosure causes declans is mostly considered to be bogus by gerbil people nowadays. The main things you want to avoid are things like multiple spaces linked together with only one small entrance, as this can make it too easy for a gerbil to decide to claim a space and defend it from another. I think there is some anecdotal evidence that suggests sometimes gerbils at early stages of declan can be forced back together if you make them spend more time together (sometimes by reducing space, but sometimes by changing set up of the tank or removing objects they fight over), but sometimes this is just delaying the inevitable, and I think that the benefits from giving them ample space for burrowing and enrichment far outweighs the dubious "risk" associated with larger tanks when considering their welfare. I think a cage topper is also a good idea for you. Then you can put wheel, sandbath, water, etc, up there without it getting buried and give them lots of bedding to burrow in the tank. Someone else had mentioned, but if you don't have much floor space to give up, this is a great way to increase their space. The scatter feeding vs bowl I think is a bit more of a preference with strong arguments either way. A bowl you can see how much they're eating and if they're selectively eating. It is possible that the boss gerbil bullies the others around a food bowl though, so worth keeping an eye on. Scatter feeding reduces the ability for a boss gerbil to bully the others for food access and it a nice bit of enrichment for them, but you cant be sure how much they're eating or if they're just picking out the good bits. So just do whichever you like and keep an eye to make sure its working well for them. I always find my animal care changes as I get the animal and see how they act and learn more about them, and different things come up that I never thought of. It seems like you're doing a lot of research so I'm sure you'll do fine. Ditto the above. ryarianne A topper would be a good addition if you don't want to get a different tank. That would allow deeper bedding and more 'toys' . Btw, even (some of) the old rules stated that 10gall/gerbil is a minimum, anyway, regarding the max size rule, I did quite a lot of digging into cage sizes when I got back into gerbils ~9mths ago, and I could find nothing to support it, other than the FAQ here and posts by fluffsntuffs. That said, if you have found other sources I'd be interested to read it. Where did you read about the max cage size? [edit] Just found that this site smallpetselect.com states a max cage size, but has zilch to back it up. And somehow I missed that gerbilwelfare.com state that too, but also with nothing to back it up. I'm surprised about that latter site, they are usually quite good on their info, and they also usually have external sources to back up their claims (I've emailed them asking about it).
And apologises for not posting what info I have, it ended up being a mammoth project and it still isn't complete (I'm just going to post what I have sooner rather than later, but it would be really useful to know where you read it). But the number of people that have been misled by that old myth keeps climbing. Btw just a snippet of that info. In Germany, The Veterinary Association for Animal Welfare (TVT) recommends a cage, a terrarium or an aquarium with the dimensions 100cmx50cmx50cm [66 US gallons, 55 imperial gallons] , for a pair, (plus a 30cm topper) in which a bedding depth of at least 40cm is guaranteed. +25% floor area for each additional Gerbil. That is published in the leaflet for gerbils by them.
The German forum recommendation from www.rennmaus.de . Habitation - Aquariums or rodent terrariums that allow a minimum bedding height of about 20cm and have a minimum size of 100cmx40cmx40cm (160 lts, 35.2 imp gall, 42.3 US gall, 4000 cm2), or (luke warm recommendation) 80cmx35cmx40cm with a topper.
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Post by ryarianne on Mar 26, 2021 6:43:11 GMT -8
Markpd I was familiar with the 10 gallons per gerbil rule, which was what prompted me to start this post. I certainly hadn't encountered the type of guidelines from the German forum...holy cow. I don't think I would have gone in the direction of gerbils if I had. I'm not sure of all the places I found the 10 gal per gerbil--several books form the library, gerbilwelfare was also one, and some other miscellaneous spots online. I saw lots of references to"it used to be 5, now it's 10" so I thought I was going off the updated guidance...I'm bummed to realize I wasn't. Wouldn't putting a topper on hit that risk of small defendable passageway? Or is it solved just by making sure there are at least 2 ramps to the topper?
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Post by yeti218 on Mar 26, 2021 13:20:32 GMT -8
Yeah a tank topper definitely can be problematic if the layout isn’t correct. But there’s lots of good options to set one up so it’s not one easily defensible point. Sometimes the floor of the topper will be smaller than the footprint of the overall tank and the “floor” will be positioned more in the middle of the tank, so they can get onto the topper from either side of the tank.
Or if theres only one entry point, this can be okay if it’s big enough (like possibly the length or width of the whole tank), its open enough to feel like an extension of their space, rather than a different room.
Or sometimes there’s small entrances to the topper, but there will be 2 at different spots in the floor.
Having multiple or big entrances also helps with air flow into the tank too. The floor should be a solid material to avoid bumble foot, but if you do end up with a cage topper with a wire floor, you can cover it with cardboard.
I’ve found I spend time thinking about what’s going to be the best set up for gerbils, and then once they live in it for a while I realize it doesn’t work as well as I thought and then I end up trying something different. So you’ll just have to set things up as best you can, and watch them and see what works and what they like and you’ll definitely end up making some changes and moving things around. As will they....
You’re getting them this weekend? So exciting.
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Post by Markpd on Mar 26, 2021 14:50:11 GMT -8
ryarianne Apologies, I've made an error, the 10gal/gerbil is the later rule as you'd read.
But I was right in saying that's a minimum, at least for many sites (but possibly not the ones that do promote the max size rule), and a minimum amongst many members here.
Although the FAQ's size is lower, but that's hopelessly out of date. ( Shooting Star can we do something about that?)
German, Swiss and Austrian gerbil welfare standards are well ahead of many US and UK sources, but many of us here (at least) try to match their standards and promote it. (I believe it's a similar situation for Hamsters, and the hamsterhideout forums who promote much bigger cages than many 'regular' sources recommend. LilyandDaisy , does that sound right?).
All that said, from what I gather, a pair gerbils do ok in a 20 gall tank, I've never seen it mentioned they'd be miserable in a 20 gall! (by all means correct me if anyone thinks/knows I'm wrong! lol).
And yeti218 has got ya well covered on the entrances to toppers question Btw, would still be interested to know where you saw the max size cage rule, or was it just at smallpetselect, gerbilwelfare and the FAQ here? If you know of others I'd be interested to read them.
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