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Post by LilyandDaisy on Mar 26, 2021 15:24:13 GMT -8
ryarianne Apologies, I've made an error, the 10gal/gerbil is the later rule as you'd read.
But I was right in saying that's a minimum, at least for many sites (but possibly not the ones that do promote the max size rule), and a minimum amongst many members here.
Although the FAQ's size is lower, but that's hopelessly out of date. ( Shooting Star can we do something about that?)
German, Swiss and Austrian gerbil welfare standards are well ahead of many US and UK sources, but many of us here (at least) try to match their standards and promote it. (I believe it's a similar situation for Hamsters, and the hamsterhideout forums who promote much bigger cages than many 'regular' sources recommend. LilyandDaisy , does that sound right?).
All that said, from what I gather, a pair gerbils do ok in a 20 gall tank, I've never seen it mentioned they'd be miserable in a 20 gall! (by all means correct me if anyone thinks/knows I'm wrong! lol).
And yeti218 has got ya well covered on the entrances to toppers question Btw, would still be interested to know where you saw the max size cage rule, or was it just at smallpetselect, gerbilwelfare and the FAQ here? If you know of others I'd be interested to read them. People on the Hamster Hideout side of the hamster community tend not to overfocus on minimum cage sizes nowadays because historically it didn't have great results. People either stuck fast to the minimum and didn't aspire to anything bigger or they took the minimum so literally that anyone with a cage an inch shorter was told their hamster was suffering or having a "minimum" size cage became a byword for doing the bare minimum to not be inhumane without really caring (so people were judged poorly for having a minimum sized cage). People don't even really talk about the German minimum much. I'm not really sure why the hamster community has such a dysfunctional relationship with the concept of a minimum cage size, when other pet communities seem to manage to have one without such problems. I think a 20 gallon tank (so, 10 gallons per gerbil if you're keeping a pair; personally I would still consider 20 gallons to be the minimum for a single gerbil as well) is an acceptable lower limit of appropriateness when it comes to gerbil housing, but the bigger the better. I don't have ramps leading to my topper. I have the bedding high enough that my gerbils can just jump up from the bedding to the topper platforms, so there's no bottlenecks or pinch points.
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Post by ryarianne on Mar 27, 2021 7:02:04 GMT -8
@lilyanddaisy is there a thread already with a pic of something like what you and Markpd are describing as far as a topper that doesn’t block airflow, doesn’t have pinch points, but doesn’t cause bumble foot? I’m lucky that my husband is quite good with woodcrafting and building, and he’s agreed to build a topper, but wants me to give him plans to follow. The ones I’ve found that cover the whole cage (thus increasing amount of size added) seem to have wire flooring, which I assume would then need to be covered to prevent foot harm, which would then block airflow to the bottom part of the cage. Others that don’t have bottoms just have shelfs, but those would need ramps to get to them and that seems like it could create the pinch points, right? Or if I go with a topper thats smaller than the tank, like hacking one made for a 10 gallon, I’ll preserve airflow to the tank even if I cover any wire shelves to protect their feet, but then I’ll be adding less total space. I’m assuming I’m just not picturing the right option quite right that prevents all these risks, but my forum searches and google searches all seem to be yielding stuff that would hit one of these challenges. Can you point me in the right direction? Thanks for your help—I keep trying not to be an annoying noob who asks things that have already been answered, but it seems my search game must be weak...lol. About to go get the gerbils soon...very excited. I have the 20 gallon all set up to get us started until we add additional space on top.
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Post by ryarianne on Mar 27, 2021 7:28:20 GMT -8
Oh I just started reading manually instead of using search and found this thread ( gerbilforum.proboards.com/thread/34880/gerbil-tank ) with pics of your tank @lilyanddaisy — it looks so nice!— but I’m wondering if you do anything to make sure enough ventilation gets into bottom area since it seems like the hole is about a third of the available space? Or is that good enough? Also wondering what kind of wood you used for the shelves or if theres a plan to refer to...from the picture it seems like plywood with a finish but I was figuring ply is not safe for gerbils because of the chemicals/glue used in it, so I’m betting it’s something special...going to do some more manual digging and avoid the search function to see what else I can find, I just wanted to update given my last comment.
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Post by LilyandDaisy on Mar 27, 2021 11:19:37 GMT -8
The thinner shelves are birch plywood, bought from a German company called Zoostore. Ordinary plywood isn't safe due to the glues and formaldehyde but birch plywood, at least some types, is ok. I'm not certain whether just any birch plywood you can buy would be safe though. The top left shelf, the white table and the little ledges are all pine, and the table legs are beech dowels. All the shelves are painted with Plastikote Project Enamel so the urine doesn't soak in. I just wipe them clean when needed. The tank is a Living World Eco Habitat which unfortunately you can't buy anymore. The topper is homemade. It's just a wood frame with mesh stapled to it and hinged doors. This is one image of the plan (I can send more if you want): i.imgur.com/CvXGzerl.pngThe only ventilation is the 1/3 of the tank which is uncovered but I find that's ok. They keep the tank part really clean and only use the sand bath and the shelves as toilets. I use a low dust bedding as well (Fitch).
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Post by Scott on Mar 28, 2021 10:04:01 GMT -8
The thinner shelves are birch plywood, bought from a German company called Zoostore. Ordinary plywood isn't safe due to the glues and formaldehyde but birch plywood, at least some types, is ok. I'm not certain whether just any birch plywood you can buy would be safe though. All plywood uses glue--that's how the layers stick together. There shouldn't be anything different about it being birch: the formaldehyde comes from the glue (phenol formaldehyde adhesive) that keeps the layers together, regardless of the wood used. The question is whether the adhesive is safe. The only non-formaldehyde adhesive used in these applications that I'm familiar with is pMDI, which is tricky to work with (I know of it being used with particleboard, not plywood), and the only safety feature I'd heard of with it is that it's formaldehyde-vapor free; I don't know what would happen if a gerbil chewed it. If the company puts out an SDS I'd be interested to see it.
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Post by LilyandDaisy on Mar 28, 2021 15:17:08 GMT -8
The thinner shelves are birch plywood, bought from a German company called Zoostore. Ordinary plywood isn't safe due to the glues and formaldehyde but birch plywood, at least some types, is ok. I'm not certain whether just any birch plywood you can buy would be safe though. All plywood uses glue--that's how the layers stick together. There shouldn't be anything different about it being birch: the formaldehyde comes from the glue (phenol formaldehyde adhesive) that keeps the layers together, regardless of the wood used. The question is whether the adhesive is safe. The only non-formaldehyde adhesive used in these applications that I'm familiar with is pMDI, which is tricky to work with (I know of it being used with particleboard, not plywood), and the only safety feature I'd heard of with it is that it's formaldehyde-vapor free; I don't know what would happen if a gerbil chewed it. If the company puts out an SDS I'd be interested to see it. Yes, that's what I was driving at. The birch plywood that's so popular in German-made pet products is presumably made with a non-toxic adhesive.
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Post by Scott on Mar 28, 2021 17:02:07 GMT -8
I contacted the company to ask what they use, so we’ll see what they say.
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Post by Markpd on Mar 29, 2021 11:50:13 GMT -8
ryarianne Afraid I don't have any pictures of such a topper, nor do I have one myself. But as yeti218 said, to avoid pinch points, you could either have 2 ramps going up, or one big one. Toppers are tricky to setup right with the conflict between not blocking off too much airflow and avoiding bumblefoot.
I wonder guys, if you used fine mesh/screen (say 2-3mm holes) instead of 'regular' wire mesh (10mm, 1/4", 1/2"), would that be ok for the gerbils feet? If so then you could have your cake and eat it!
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Post by LilyandDaisy on Mar 29, 2021 12:39:52 GMT -8
Another idea for the floors would be perforated metal with 2-3mm holes which might be more comfortable for the gerbils than mesh. I have a tank where the whole lid is perforated metal and the ventilation seems fine (though it gets quite dingy inside). Or you could do a wire floor covered with cardboard, which you replace as needed. Cardboard is very breathable. But I think wood is fine as long as it doesn't cover too much surface area and you have a gap of at least a couple of inches between the top of the bedding and the shelves for air to circulate. Even better if the shelf isn't placed at the very bottom of the topper, so there is some sideways ventilation beneath it.
A cool thing I found out the other day is that gerbil noses are designed so that they don't exhale much moisture, so if their toilet is in the topper and the bedding is low in dust, there should be very little moisture/ammonia/dust build up in the tank.
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Post by yeti218 on Mar 29, 2021 21:19:48 GMT -8
This is just an idea, but if I were interested in a topper for a 20 gallon tank, I'd probably measure the width & length of the tank and then try to buy a rodent cage with similar dimensions and then just use the wire barred cage on top of the tank.
You would have to figure out a way to attach the cage to the tank, but I dont think that's any more challenging than building a whole topper from scratch.
The other thing with this is you can buy a lot of accessories that are designed to attach to cage bars, like the wheel and water bottle. And you can also buy wooden platforms (I think these are common for chinchillas) that you can attach to cage bars where you could potentially put a sandbath.
Theres lots of cool cage toppers on pinterest though so that's another place to look for ideas.
And if you're mulling over plans or something you can always post on here if you want some eyes on it before moving forward.
Anyway, you were getting the gerbils this weekend? Hows everyone settling it?
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Post by ryarianne on Apr 10, 2021 10:02:39 GMT -8
I forgot to circle back to say thanks for all these ideas! My husband built an awesome topper for me based on advice here and other ideas he found online, and the gerbils are getting along well and loving their topper. I am hoping I copied right link from imgur to share what it looks like (a hot mess even though just cleaned their cage less than 12 hours ago—seems like now they have a topper they poop and pee everywhere instead of in little sand corner I made for them before they liked...I may start a new thread about that to get advice). Anyway here it is, thanks for all the ideas everyone! imgur.com/gallery/ieDAkm6
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Post by Markpd on Apr 11, 2021 8:39:33 GMT -8
Wow! Very nice topper!
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Thea
Member
Posts: 1,012
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Post by Thea on Apr 11, 2021 11:51:11 GMT -8
Agreed - it's great!
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Post by yeti218 on May 3, 2021 9:36:50 GMT -8
That’s amazing. Looks like a really nice set up. Good work to you and your husband.
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