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Post by LilyandDaisy on Aug 18, 2021 15:36:45 GMT -8
It happened again tonight. This time she was eating a dried grasshopper. She didn't do the gagging thing but she kept gaping her mouth and pawing at it, so she was clearly having trouble getting it down. This lasted several minutes but during this she was going about as normal. In the video she was doing her "I want to come out for a run" dance! (edit: although I've since read that - at least with rabbits - moving around while chewing and pawing at their mouth can be a sign they're about to start choking) You can see best what she's doing if you watch the video in 0.5 or 0.75 speed: www.youtube.com/watch?v=R4oibck0CGQI'm not really sure what to do. I'm going to email the rescue my gerbils came from to see if they have any vet recommendations, but I'm aware that any vet probably can't do much in the way of diagnosis without imaging, since you can't exactly palpate a gerbil's neck or look down their throat. And I don't know whether I would want to put Lily under anaesthetic when she's well generally and can still eat normally most of the time. And if they did see something like a growth, could they even remove it, or would I to risk it?
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Post by betty on Aug 20, 2021 10:25:34 GMT -8
Hmm, I can see what you mean - there is a definite mouth issue there - but whether it is mouth related (something stuck/discomfort/weird feeling) or breathing related (a sensation requiring gulping or similar) it is hard to tell?
If you could find a decent vet I am sure it would need an anesthetic to take a serious look in the mouth and around the teeth as a start. This would eliminate most of the mouth-related options (but not all - only an x-ray could see potential dental or jaw issues).
You are right to ponder whether that would even be worth it other than for your own short-term gain. What I often do though in similar situations is ask the vets for anti-inflammatories to see if the condition changes (indicating there WAS something wrong that now isn't wrong because of the medication). Only if it changes can we potentially progress with anything along those lines.
Additionally you can always ask for a referral from your vet to anyone else that might be a specialist even if located miles away - they can at least look at images/videos and chat to you as part of that referral - and can often help out a bit at least without a face-to-face.
Finally - there is a group on FB called Exotic Pet Vets (or similar) where vets and approved contributers only can answer your question - perhaps posting it there might throw up something helpful?
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Post by LilyandDaisy on Aug 20, 2021 13:30:39 GMT -8
I hadn't thought about anti-inflammatories but I will ask about that if I take her to a vet. The rescue got back to me and said that they haven't found a good gerbil vet either! That's a bit disheartening as I would think if one exists in the area, they would know about them.
When you ask a vet for a referral to a specialist, do you have to specify a particular specialist, or just leave it open ("please can you refer me to someone who knows more about this")?
I will look into the Facebook group.
I was thinking that hay and dried grasshoppers have something in common in that they're both very fibrous, probably hard to chew, and dry, so that might be significant.
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Post by Markpd on Aug 29, 2021 16:57:28 GMT -8
Sorry to hear this is an ongoing issue , I hope you can get to the bottom of it soon.
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Post by LilyandDaisy on Aug 29, 2021 17:56:31 GMT -8
Thank you Markpd. I hope so too. I haven't seen Lily having any further swallowing trouble since the dried grasshopper. It might not be directly connected to this issue (though I'm starting to wonder), but she had another "wobbly" episode when out running about a week ago. It wasn't as bad as last time. Sometimes during free roaming Lily and Daisy go into a really silly, hyperactive mood, where they just tear around wildly (so imagine normal gerbil madness x10). It often happens at the end of free roaming when I think they're just overstimulated and overexcited. They were in one of these moods and Lily went limp and collapsed slightly. She was fine again in a few seconds and went back to tearing around. Maybe the best description for it was a faint. I'm wondering if she has some kind of issue that happens when she overexerts herself, though I'm not sure how or whether that would be connected to the swallowing issue.
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Post by Markpd on Aug 30, 2021 3:00:35 GMT -8
Yea I read that thread, it's all very odd.
I wonder (as you guys have speculated too) if she has some kind of growth in her throat? I think if it were me I'd be looking at taking her to a vet to check her mouth and throat, and find one whose experienced with gerbils, even if I had to drive quite some distance. (But if you can't drive, or drive far, public transport with gerbils in a carrier is a whole different ball game!). Granted it could be a wasted trip, but at least that option has been tried.
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Post by LilyandDaisy on Aug 30, 2021 9:32:50 GMT -8
Something horrible happened this afternoon, but to Daisy and I'm only posting here because it seems vaguely similar and I don't want to start a new thread. I heard odd noises coming from the gerbil cage. They were coming from Daisy who was in the sand bath and I think she had either inhaled some sand or was choking on something. She was making small thrusting movements of her head similar to what Lily has done, and pawing at her mouth. In the sand bath she had a Whimzee dog chew and another type of dog chew, so she might have been choking on one of those, or the sand. The sand was play sand which I don't usually like using because it smells, but I had run out of the normal sepiolite sand. This choking episode was far, far worse than anything that happened to Lily. It lasted probably about 20 minutes and she was panicking. She had red mucus coming out of her nose. I tried to pick her up and open her mouth to see if I could dislodge something (normally I know it's best to leave them to it because you can make things worse, but this was a desperate situation) but she was so scared she wouldn't let me hold her. During this I had her in a carrier so that I could watch her better (I didn't want her disappearing underground) and also because when I had their cage open Lily kept trying to climb out. Eventually when she seemed a bit better I put them both in a small hamster cage where they still are. I will probably keep them in it during the evening so I can watch her more closely. Over about an hour she gradually recovered. She has eaten, drunk and washed herself now, and she's now moving around the cage as normal (and trying to get out). In the videos she has squinty eyes and her fur is ruffled like a very sick gerbil but she looks normal now. Earlier she seemed tired but now she seems ok. Videos (sorry that the audio is hit and miss): www.youtube.com/watch?v=u4Bs7UQVZwEwww.youtube.com/watch?v=eylZBO9k5UAwww.youtube.com/watch?v=xiPJXwmSXXQSo now I don't know what to think? Is it just a coincidence? I've found a vet who I'm willing to try (they seem to have an interest in rabbits and guinea pigs, so that's something?) and I'm going to have them both seen, but they don't have any appointments until the end of September. (I've also renamed this thread to something more relevant - to make it easier for future people to find it if they have a similar problem. I'm going to see if I can get it moved to the healthcare section)
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Post by Markpd on Aug 30, 2021 11:32:37 GMT -8
Aww poor Daisy, she looks exhausted in the last video you linked , good to hear she's since recovered though. Sorry to hear of further woes btw It seems like she's retching, but you said Gerbils can't vomit? So I'm totally confused by that. It reminds of a cat hacking up a furball, if that's of any help?? Have you given them those dog chews before without any issues? If so, maybe it is somehow the sand? (though I can't think how). I suppose for now all you can do is remove the sand and see how they get on?
Btw, would you be able to email said vet and give them a link to Daisy's videos? Maybe they could shed some light on it?
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Post by LilyandDaisy on Aug 30, 2021 12:38:45 GMT -8
She was exhausted afterwards. I feel so sorry for her because she was terrified.
It does look a lot like retching or a cat coughing up a hairball, but I didn't notice Daisy bringing anything up (although Lily did). They can't vomit but evidently they can cough things up. I think if it was sand, a lot of it probably came out of her nose which would explain the red mucus. I think it's possible she tried to eat some sand, and it stuck or clumped in her throat, and then from her throat it might have entered her airways.
I've given Whimzees many times without any problems. A lot of people give them to hamsters and gerbils. Because I bought the Whimzees on Amazon, Amazon now thinks I have a dog so they sent a free sample of another dog chew called Dentalife. The ingredients looked ok so I gave it to the gerbils. They didn't really like that one though. It was only slightly chewed and I found it completely buried in the sand bath so I'm almost sure it wasn't what caused the problem.
I'm definitely going to send the videos to the vet before I see them.
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Post by Markpd on Aug 31, 2021 11:02:44 GMT -8
Hmm, maybe it is the sand then, very odd. I can't see Whimzees (what kind of a name is that!? lol ) causing the problems if it's so widely used then.
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Post by LilyandDaisy on Sept 6, 2021 10:58:06 GMT -8
Lily had another "wobbly" episode tonight while free roaming. But this time she hadn't even been very active. She wasn't racing around like both times before, she just suddenly went limp and wobbly, then recovered within a few minutes. I put her back in the tank and she's gone to bed now (edit: she had gone to bed but she's got up again now and she's just climbed up the vertical wire mesh of their topper to get to the top floor, so I would assume she's feeling fine now).
They're both seeing the vet on 1st October so hopefully the vet will have something to suggest. I will email a few days beforehand to ask if they would look at the videos.
It is slightly warm tonight, which is in common with the first episode. The second episode, it wasn't warm at all, but she had been very active. I don't know if the temperature has anything to do with it or not.
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Post by catnut on Sept 6, 2021 15:34:12 GMT -8
i would take out the sand and not give them any of the chews just in case it is due to both or one of these causing the episodes. How are they when in their tank? everything else fine when they eat?
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Post by LilyandDaisy on Sept 6, 2021 16:03:03 GMT -8
I took out the play sand until I was able to get more sepiolite. They have sepiolite now. I don't know if I should remove that and only let them use it under supervision. They haven't had any more of the chews.
Lily's episodes of being limp and wobbly have only happened outside the tank that I have seen, but it's possible I just wouldn't notice if it happened in the tank because she would go underground or sit in a hide until she was better. Aside from the choking episodes, they both eat normally.
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Post by LilyandDaisy on Sept 14, 2021 3:13:59 GMT -8
Lily had another wobbly episode today, but this time in her enclosure so I know it's not solely related to free roaming now. She had just woken up in the morning and couldn't have overexerted herself so I also don't think it's solely related to overexertion or excitement though those could be triggers. It was very similar to previous episodes. She went wobbly, started staggering around with weakness of her back legs, but recovered within a couple of minutes. However she remains conscious and responsive and tries to continue her normal activities. I don't know if she's consciously trying to behave as usual or if she's doing it a stereotypic or habitual way without being very aware of what she's doing (like sleep walking). There was no particular trigger that I saw (I was watching her before it happened). She also had another episode last week while free roaming so she's had 5 episodes now (plus the 3 choking episodes), and they're becoming more regular. It happens quite regularly now when she's free roaming, and because she's tired afterwards she has to go back in the cage to sleep it off. This is a problem because she loves free roaming (it's a big part of her life) and it's a shame for it to be cut short so often. I'm looking forward to her seeing the vet in a couple of weeks. This was a photo I managed to take during the episode last week: Her hind quarters are low to the ground due to the weakness in her back legs and I think her tail looks odd. I don't think gerbils usually hold their tails curved round like that. Usually gerbils have a lot of muscle tone in their tails which means it's held straight behind them, but during these episodes her tail goes limp.
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Post by Markpd on Sept 24, 2021 12:05:08 GMT -8
Sorry I didn't reply earlier lilyanddaisy, it seems I'm getting random failures of notifications from some threads here recently.
And sorry to hear she's been having more episodes, seeing as she recovers so quickly, I think that rules out mini-strokes right? It's all very odd, could it be an epilepsy thing? Affecting part of the brain, rather than the whole? I'm clutching at straws tbh as I can't even think of a good guess! But tiredness often follows fits. It will be interesting to see what the vets say, have they seen the videos?
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