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Post by Markpd on Dec 15, 2021 12:26:14 GMT -8
Sorry to hear her health is deteriorating , hopefully the high calorie diet will stabilise her. Sounds like Daisy is enjoying this diet too! lol
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Post by LilyandDaisy on Dec 15, 2021 14:07:27 GMT -8
Thank you elsaandanna and Markpd . She's just got up for her dinner of scrambled egg, peas, cucumber, carrot and cranberries. She ate a big piece of scrambled egg, two peas and a little bit of cranberry and she'll probably be up again later for more!
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Post by Markpd on Dec 16, 2021 13:30:46 GMT -8
Aww lovely photo , looks like a lovely dinner she had! Any left for me?
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Post by LilyandDaisy on Dec 16, 2021 14:12:04 GMT -8
Sadly not!
That high calorie gel arrived today. It smells a bit like chocolate (also looks like chocolate sauce) and Lily loves it. She just licks it off my fingers.
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Post by LilyandDaisy on Dec 17, 2021 9:03:12 GMT -8
Lily went back to the vet today because her breathing has been heavier and she's had breathing noises (a pop or crack with each breath, and also a more nasal squeaking). She also gained some weight back while looking skinner which concerned me.
The vet said there's definitely something in her chest or lungs and there are basically three possibilities for these kind of symptoms: an infection, fluid from heart failure or a tumour. X-rays should show if she had fluid or a tumour but I'm not comfortable putting her through anaesthesia at her age and in her current state of health. She doesn't really have any other signs that would point to an infection (I have antibiotics to give if needed though) so the vet prescribed furosemide (a diuretic) which should hopefully help with any fluid in her lungs. They didn't have the liquid furosemide in stock so I had to get a written prescription and order it online. It should arrive tomorrow or Monday. I will stop giving the dandelion root as it will interact with the furosemide.
The vet also said that if the medication didn't work, we might have to consider euthanasia as chronic breathlessness is not pleasant. I can see her point and will think carefully about it but I think Lily might have been breathing more heavily at the vets than normal due to stress, plus she was just sitting still in the carrier and chattering her teeth, also due to stress, which I think may have given the vet a worse overall picture? But I'm not sure. At home she is still moving around as normal. She's even climbing the cage walls (she doesn't always make it to the top, but she tries!) and hopping around her little ledges, chewing her cork logs etc so she's not just doing the bare minimum to live (eating and drinking). She just doesn't look like an animal in a constant state of severe breathlessness? I often watch her sleep and she looks fairly comfortable. Sometimes animals will prop themselves in strange positions to sleep due to breathlessness and she doesn't seem to be doing that. I'm really doubting myself now though. I think the vet was seeing a worse picture that the reality, but there's a risk that I'm seeing a better picture than the reality because it's what I want? On the whole I'm probably still glad the vet mentioned it though because now I can start mentally preparing myself for the possibility.
Hopefully the furosemide will help though. I actually checked her again just now and the lung noises seem quieter although she's still squeaking. I don't think she squeaks when sleeping. I've mostly noticed it when she's eating and when she's being held.
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Post by Markpd on Dec 17, 2021 14:08:02 GMT -8
Oh dear, sorry to hear that . It sounds like she's still doing plenty of other things besides the bare essentials, so she can't be in too much distress or pain (if any) with her condition? Sounds to me like she still seems to have a decent quality of life, and so fair enough to keep going for the time being. That's my inexperienced opinion anyway! But it sounds like you're on top of things. We'll see what more experienced people say.
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Thea
Member
Posts: 1,012
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Post by Thea on Dec 18, 2021 2:30:01 GMT -8
I agree with your thoughts LilyandDaisy, if she's acting more herself at home then it doesn't seem there's much of a reason to let go of her. If she really did have chronic breathlessness, she would surely not be able to do the things you've described, or at least look like she's really struggling with them? My pets (especially my cat - but I have also seen it in my gerbils) tend to act pretty differently at the vet - so it's likely that the vet saw that side of her and assumed she was like that at home, too. My vets have also been fairly quick to suggest euthanasia in my animals - I guess for good reason most of the time, but sometimes they are living a really happy life at home but act a certain way at the vet causing them to suggest this. On the other hand, they sometimes don't notice the illness that I notice - for instance, I took Rolo to the vet a few days before her death KNOWING there was something wrong but I had no clue what, yet even after a thorough check of her, they said they saw no issues and she was probably fine. Basically, you know Lily best so trust yourself - if you think she's okay, she probably is. The vet only sees her for a few minutes, whereas you see her for much longer. I hope Lily will be alright - poor girl
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Post by LilyandDaisy on Dec 18, 2021 14:29:46 GMT -8
Sorry to post again with yet more bad news but Lily had what appears to be a stroke this morning. The camera in their cage captured her looking normal at about 5am but by 9.30am when I checked on them she was very unbalanced, listing to one side and rolling around a lot. She looked pretty much identical to how Storm was on his last day. Storm got rapidly worse throughout the day and had to be put to sleep so I wanted to wait and see in what direction Lily was going to go before posting.
I initially put her in a hospital cage along with Daisy to keep a closer eye on her (as I can watch their nest through the tank wall but I can't really access them without digging everything up). But she seemed really disoriented. She kept running round the cage as she was looking for something (probably wanting her usual nest) and eventually I decided she needed to rest and this wasn't helping at all so I put them back in their cage and she went back to her nest.
I wouldn't say she's vastly better now but she hasn't gone quickly downhill like Storm did. She has got up a few times and eaten. She tried to get up to the top floor of their topper but fell down the steps. She's been coming to the front of the cage to see me when she's out. When she came out just now, she might have had a bit more control over her movements but I'm not sure. So she doesn't seem to be just rolling over and giving up which is encouraging.
She does seem to have a very strong will to live which at some point might work against her (if she keeps on fighting to live at a time when perhaps it would be better for her not to), and at that point I might have to make the decision for her but I don't think she's at that point yet. Whereas Storm just seemed to give up on that day he was so ill. He started actively refusing all food. Even when it was all mashed up and easy to eat, and placed right in front of him, he wouldn't even attempt to eat it by the end. Perhaps still having a companion makes a difference? Daisy has been grooming Lily a lot which I think has a relaxing and soothing effect. Storm was also really terrified when he was ill and that was another reason I had to put him to sleep. If I was holding him he would bolt straight out of my hands just from fear. He wasn't a scared gerbil normally so I think it's something a stroke does to the brain that causes this fear and disorientation (I know in humans, strokes can cause paranoia and other mental disturbances). Lily was a bit like that this morning but she seems calmer now.
The furosemide arrived today but I'm not going to give it yet as if she's not drinking properly due to the stroke it will dehydrate her and could be quite dangerous. Her breathing isn't too bad now actually. I haven't seen her drink but she is eating fresh food and I've given her some water by syringe.
I'm aware that Lily is likely to be in her last days right now just due to the speed with which things are happening to her. I also know in her current state of mobility, she is managing in the short term, but it wouldn't be kind to let her live like this long term so I'm going to give her a few days to see if she improves and becomes more mobile.
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Post by catnut on Dec 18, 2021 15:59:19 GMT -8
Sorry to hear Lily had a stroke but is seeming to recover, fingers crossed she will keep improving. It is hard to know what to do but as long as she is functioning and trying, i would keep doing all you can for her. My Theo had a bad stroke in July and i did have a bit of hope when he tried to eat after a few hours, but he couldn't and was just fading soon after and passed away hours later,he moved around the cage for awhile and was very confused, it was hard to see him that way- that is when i called vets but couldn't find one open or one could put him down so i comforted him the best i could. Take care and know you are doing all you can and we understand here.
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Post by Markpd on Dec 18, 2021 16:54:07 GMT -8
Poor Lily , hoping she does recover... So nice that Daisy has been looking after her so well :') (as well as you of course!)
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Post by LilyandDaisy on Dec 19, 2021 17:34:55 GMT -8
Lily is ok. I think she seems somewhat better? She's still leaning to one side but she's falling or rolling over less and mostly managing to get around. She's eating well (as per usual). I forgot to mention in my last post that she is on antibiotics just in case it's an inner ear infection (given how lop-sided she is). She still struggles to get up the steps to the upper topper floor so I might need to make some adjustments there. There's nothing she needs up there but she does seem to want to go up there anyway. This is how it's arranged so you can see the steps are rather large for a disabled gerbil: Daisy is a very sweet gerbil Markpd. The interesting thing is, she always used to be very dependent on Lily for confidence to the extent that I used to really worry how she would cope if Lily died first. But as Lily has become gradually weaker over the past two months, Daisy has really increased in confidence, self-sufficiency and dominance. She technically always was the dominant gerbil, but they had a very balanced relationship whereby it wasn't immediately obvious who was dominant. Lily would never really challenge Daisy's dominance and Daisy would rarely throw her weight about, they just sort of existed together peacefully. They're still very peaceful, it's just now more obvious that Daisy is the boss.
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Post by LilyandDaisy on Dec 19, 2021 19:29:38 GMT -8
So ... Lily appears to have had another one of her miraculous recoveries.
She just came out appearing completely normal. On closer look I could see she was still a bit unsteady, and when sitting on her back legs she sometimes had to put a front paw out to steady herself, but she's so much better than she was just a few hours ago. I wonder now if it was an infection and the antibiotics are kicking in? I didn't think it was likely before though as she didn't appear generally unwell.
A few hours ago she was struggling to get up those steps to the upper floor. Just now she made it up there, but not using the steps. She climbed up the mesh instead. And then she came bounding back down the steps.
I remember once saying on here that she was made of rubber. That was in relation to her ability to climb and fall without ever getting injured, but I think now it can also refer to her ability to bounce back from things.
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Post by betty on Dec 20, 2021 0:55:18 GMT -8
Bless her, and yes - I often worry about hydration and 'can they be bothered' things when I have ledges. I mean I can't even be bothered to reach across to the table for a drink when I am feeling ill and finally get comfy - so I always wonder if the thought of leaping up ledges can sometimes deter a poorly or elderly gerbil too?
And I just totally got the scale wrong on that image this morning - I saw the 'ramakin' and it totally messed up my perception for a few minutes there... I was like 'where did they find such a teeny wheel?'. Perhaps I need some more jam on toast this morning??
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Post by LilyandDaisy on Dec 20, 2021 4:01:46 GMT -8
I see what you mean with the ramakin and the wheel betty, but yes, it's an extra large ramakin! I think it might actually be a souffle dish. I found it in a charity shop. They also have a water dish on ground level so they don't always have to go up that ramp if they don't want to. Lily's still doing well this morning. Even her breathing is so much better.
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Post by betty on Dec 20, 2021 4:42:15 GMT -8
I love it - wich I was still going in charity shops these days - I do love re-purposing crockery for my little ones! I have a million teeny ramakins already - but would love a giant one too.
I wish I had nice space for a bowl on my lower levels in some tanks - but I don't. I did try to put the bowl inside a house once - but it was a total failure in the end. What a mess!!! Maybe I need to invest in a few new retirement enclosures for the new year?
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