One Gerbil dead in a presumed fight

[martin65]

Hi forum!

I´m a new member and I am writing as we had a tradedy the other day. 

We had 4 lovely sisters, Vesta, Juno, Ceres and Pallas. They are about 5 months of age and we bought them one month old. We never had any problems before. For the first time we had to leave them alone for 5 days, I had someone come to come look at them and change food and water every day.


One day before we came home, Juno was found dead. I examined her when I got home and she had blood at the rear end and a scrathed eyebrow. But there was not much blood and we could not find any in the cage either. One other gerbil, Vesta, had a big sctrach on one eyebrow aswell with dried blood but that wound is starting to look good aldreay, no other wounds found.

We where alla very shocked by this in the family since they always been so caring of eachother always sleeping in a pile etc.

Juno was the most active Gerbil and the only one usning the hamster wheel al the time, and it was also next to the wheel she was found. But I have to say the only really plausible explanation has to be a fight amonst them, am I right?

Is there any advise in this situation going forward?

/Thanks Martin

[betty]

Welcome to the forum martin65 - sorry it isn't under better circumstances!

Very sad news to hear of your lovely ladies - and I am sure it wasn't anything to do with your own care of them.

There is of course the chance that they were injured by something in their environment (what wheel do you use, what enrichment do they have and what is the enclosure like) - or while they were in someone else's care (accidently squashed, picked up wrong, dropped) - but a fight is also in the Top 4 initial guesses for them (the 4th is a cat attack - but rule that out obviously if you - or they - don't have a cat).

Gerbils - especially females - are often living in a state of tension anyway - even if they all look wonderfully happy. Living in a gerbil clan is very much about acting like you like the others above you and putting those beneath you in their place. And in a group of 4 females - that can be a difficult balance to keep.

It is possible that the remaining 3 will get on just fine now Juno has left the clan and Vesta has become the 'new boss' - so I suppose the best way forward is to eliminate all chances of it being environmntal, and then keep a close eye on them from now on.

No point taking a single out right now if they aren't showing any other declan signs - as they will be alone then - but if you do want to - and think this was a fight/declan than make sure that single isn't Vespa.

[martin65]

Thank you so much for your great answere and tips. Yes, I agree the care of them was not the reason but our absence might have made them bored as the one stopping by to feed them was not picking any of them up or played with them. Seems the timing of it all, that it happens the first time we where away might have something to do with it.

It´s intresting that the tension can be great amongst them, I thought it would be safe when they are sisters and it´s been fine up until now. My kids also tell me Vesta and Juno was the most together, the best friends so to speak. Juno though was the most active and maybe the most rebel one, doing her own thing. I really hope the three remaning will have lasting balance.

Is it normal these fights end up with a fatal result?

For cage, I use Qute by Omlet, I use two that I linked together with a tunnel. The wheel is the one that follows with and I really can´t think of any possibility the injures was from something in the enviroment.

[betty]

It isn't fully understood, but if it was a declan - it is possible that Juno was the current leader and Vespa was always with her to get in her face - or to spot her weaknesses. It is also possible that Juno was ill in some way and so Vespa may have been supporting her (as they can sense these things) and that Juno acted differently just before her time of death (perhaps a seizure) and accidently injured Vespa or scared Vespa resulting in the minor injuries sustained.

We are hearing more tha people are saying a declan killed a gerbil - but it was laways thought that a gerbil died (potentially like I described above) and this resulted in or just looked like a declan. However, until someone witnesses 'a killing' for sure with no doubt we can not know either way.

If they are all actually sibling littermates and you meant you bought them one month ago (rather than when they were just 4 weeks old when you got them), then it is unusual for them to declan this young for no reason. If they weren't sibling littermates, or were taken from a larger group only a month ago - then this is more likely to have caused a declan - but doesn't mean that it would definitely have caused one. However, if they were actually homed to you at 4 weeks old, then that too could be a reason as they would have been taken from the parents a little too soon and woudn't have understood gerbil rules properly.


Finally - the set up for 2 Qute enclosures isn't ideal for gerbils really. Not only do gerbils find vertical tunnels quite a struggle and can often slip and fall - but gerbils are really controlling in their clans. We aren't really sure if the pinch points caused by tunnels and totally segmented living can be a cause of heightening a declan. Due to the way that the dominant gerbil controls the behaviour and actions of other gerbils - they can potentially stop other gerbils eating and drinking properly (especially if you only feed in one section and have only one water bottle). They can also certainly stop them sleeping properly (gerbils after a declan are often exhausted and sleep a lot once alone).

I am not sure of the wheel type for a Qute - so will have to look it up - but if it is solid with no moving parts on the front - it should be fine.

However, as we can't rule out an underlying health issue with Juno - we can't be sure what happened to trigger her death and the injuries you found, so it is a bit of a waiting game really?

[martin65]

Really helpful input, thanks again.

Yes, the petshop told me they where about 4 weeks old when we got them, they did not know for sure, might have been more siblings sold already aswell. But they became quite a lot bigger the next few weeks.

I told my children (11 and 9 yo) that Juno could have been sick or had an accident and Vesta was hurt helping out, seemed the better story for them and i might have be the case even if declan seems more likely to me after reading your posts.

Vesta have been sleeping a lot more...

I use a horizontal ferplast tunnel between the upperfloppors of the Qute enclosures. And it continues in a bit more tunnels in one of the upper floors with a couple of twists and entrences. I seen they seems to like the tunnels, and moving between very fast all the time. The vertical tunnels between the floors they move through so fast it seems like they almost jumping them rather than climbing. But I see what you mean, we do only have food and bottle in one of the floors. I will put an extra food and bottle in the second one aswell. Should I remove some of the extra tunnels?

Yes, seems like a waiting game. I´ll be sure to post how it turned out.

[martin65]

Just a short update. Things are going well so far. Vesta wound over the eyebrow has heeled and it´s looking like she got a scar now. Most importantly no signs of any fights between the remaing three sisters.

[betty]

Thanks for the update - and great news. Phew.

[martin65]

New update and some worries.

I have three female gerbils, as mentioned when i made this thread. Today Vesta and Ceres had a fight today that i fortunatly witnessed and could intervene. They moved lightning fast, never ever seen they move even close to that speed chasing eachother. Then they tumbled around and squeaking. They did not stop until i could pick one of them up. Ceres had two small bite marks, on the tail and rectum.

They are all sisters and been with me since december.

I put Vesta alone, she is the attacker and presumed leader. But everytime I put her back in with the other two she and Ceres start going at eachother again. Not as the first time but still making squeaks and wrestling.

What can I do? Who should be alone if I seperate them temporarly?

[yeti218]

Yes, definitely separate the gerbils. Figure out your next move later, keep everyone safe and give the some time to cool down.

Sorry you’re dealing with all this. Sounds really tricky. I’m not entirely sure who you should take out, but I’ll give some of my thoughts and see if it’s helpful to you.

People will often leave the boss gerbil and take out the other. This is because if you remove the boss, you may have problems with the other two now vying for the top spot.

That said, if you have an idea as to which gerbil, vesta or Ceres, gets along better with the remaining sister, it may be smart to leave that one.

I’d also be worried that vesta, if she’s already started trouble with Ceres and Juno, might continue to cause trouble?

Sorry I’m not much help here. But trust me on the first thing. Separate them.

[martin65]

I am so greatful for the answere. We are so worried. Vesta, the boss, was seperated during the night. Now in the morning we tried again to put them together. Ceres was hiding in her coconut and Vesta went sitting just outside the coconut hole and they brushed their noses and made may sounds. I thought this was a good thing but as soon as Ceres left the coconut she was once again chased by Vesta so I had to seperate again. I also tried to put them in the transport cage together while watching over them during breakfirst and then there was no fighting at all. But as soon as i put them together is the cage they went hostile once more.

I will not put them together unsupervised.

Is there a thread in the forum about this or has people have any sucesses in "making friends" again and have any on this?

[yeti218]

There are lots of similar threads where people have had their gerbils declan and are wondering what to do next.

I would absolutely recommend just getting the gerbil youve removed set up properly in a seperate cage and giving all the gerbils some time (days or weeks) to cool down while you contemplate your next move.

I have heard people talk about trying to rebond gerbils who've declanned, but the times I've heard it attempted theres been some obvious reason their gerbils fought which had since been addressed. Like if one gerbil was having a medical issue which caused other gerbils to pick on it, but the issue was since healed. Or one poster had a fumigator in her house and she suspected her gerbils fought because their own smells were masked by the smells the pest remover introduced and it confused them.

In your case it sounds like these gerbils just dont want to be roommates anymore. Even if you were successful in reintroducing them, I'd think it possible they fall out again in the future.

[betty]

Yes, as said above - usually on a declan it is strategically best to leave the new dominant one (the current bully) in with the remaining geribl/gerbils as they have been planning this for a long time and so think (or know) they can overthrow the boss. Therfore if you leave them and the gerbil/s they were no fighting with there is a very high chance that they will stay bonded under this new regime.

As said - there is often (but not always) an issue with the one who is being bullied now - such as a health issue - and so taking out the 'bully' to live alone means that if there WAS a health issue that we hadn't noticed as mere humans yet, this could possibly affect your remaining clan in the future - potentially then leaving 2 gerbils (who had got on) now as two seperates.

It also means that you have a 'wanting to be dominant' single to pair up with a new friend at some point - and so only a VERY submissive younger gerbil would be suggested. Anything else could make a split harder to achieve as you have to hope the other adult would start off submissive - and unless they are VERY old and very chilled - this can't always be guaranteed.

Deciding who to put with who in group situations like this is always tricky and even the best intentions don't always work out. However after what you describe Vespa doing to Ceres - they need to be permanently seperated - of that I have no doubt. So you have the three choices described above that do overlap but are quite different in reasoning:

1) Leave Vespa with Pallas to maintain that dominant coupling
2) Put Pallas with whoever she gets on the best with if you have noticed a preference
3) Leave Pallas with Ceres - as clearly Vespa is a strong dominant and Pallas may be being over-bullied

There is no 'right' answer here unfortunately - you can only go with what you in your heart feels is the best situation for all three gerbils. And options 2 and 3 both assume that Pallas isn't next in line to be boss after Vespa has gone.

1) Is usually strategically best for a 'stable clan' irrespective of all else
Hopefully Ceres would be easy to rebond

2) Is potentially best for the pair short to mid term - it could also be long term best if no health issues
Hopefully Vespa would accept a young pup and form a new clan

3) If they get on already - this could be the 'nicest' option for Ceres & Pallas too
There always needs to be a dominant one - but perhaps Ceres was a nicer 'boss' to Pallas than Vespa will ever be?

[martin65]

Just wanted to post a follow up on this. We had to make a split cage after a declan. After that we did the bathtube reintroduction, where we suprevised them. Also we let them be play together when we brought them out of the cage. During the beginning of june we rearanged in the cage and started to let them be together in the cage but only for a few hours in when we where at home.

When a moved from the city to our summer place for 2 months we had a new habitat for our gerbils there, from that moment all of our three sister girbils lived again together and without any incident. Now we are back in the city and all is good. Just wanted to share this happy story.

[betty]

Wow - thank for the update - that is great news.

Can you give us an update on what the new enclosure looked like and what was different to the old one - it might help with the declanning chats we have about reintroducing former friends. Would be awesome if this wasn't a one off and we could replicate the results of it!!!!