Four males together. One has started to get aggressive.

[trevorc]

Hi folks, new forum member here, and relatively new gerbil owner. Had our first pair, both males, a few years ago and they were happy and well loved. Caramel died first after a short illness and Chocolate survived alone for just over another year seeming to be very happy alone. 

Got our current gerbils about three months ago, this time four males. (Two black, two grey.) 

So far they've got along great, lived very happily and cosied up together to sleep. We have them out a lot to handle and they've good with human contact, daily having time out of their home running free on a (secure!) landing. Anyway, just a few days ago we noticed one of the black ones was 'hiding' on the top platform of their home, seeming to be very wary of mixing with the others, so wondered if he was being picked on (he's the smallest by weight and had always had a slightly deformed paw so we think he was probably the runt of a litter.) Occasionally he'd venture down and there would be something of a scuffle with them vigorously chasing each other and he'd shoot back up to take refuge on the highest point. Over the course of the day we watched and monitored, and experimented taking different ones out to see how behaviour varied, and have pretty much worked out that one of the greys has become aggressive just towards one of the blacks. We have two homes, so have separated them into pairs for now, right next to each other so they can see/smell through the bars on the top layer, and are swapping them from home to home regularly. Each day we're trying to give them some time out on their landing together to observe, but it soon becomes apparent that Glitch (the grey one) is still behaving aggressively towards Liquorice (black). If we isolate Glitch and leave the other three all together, they quickly settle back down and cosy up together, so it seems that the other grey (Earl) is happy to be either in with Glitch or in with Liquorice and Arthur. 

Are we going about this the right way? When we just had two they fell out for a short while and we went through a similar process which worked and they soon became friends again. 

And if it ends up that we really can't keep them all together again, would it be better to keep them in as two pairs or as a three and a one? (I'm assuming the two pairs.) 

[betty]

Hello - and welcome to the forum.

You are totally right that this looks like the start of a declan - staying up alone at a high point is one of the signs. You are also right that a 2:2 split would be best for the gerbils - because that way both will have a friend - and both pairs will be more balanced (trios can sway one way or the other).

It is possible that your 4 males weren't originally litter-mate siblings (lots of breeders mix up pups) and so this 3 months alone at yours has allowed them a chance to settle. It does seem strange though that the weaker pup is the one getting beaten up - as it is usually a contest between the two most dominant.

It is possible that taking time outs might settle things - but unless Glitch and Liqurice can agree to disagree and shake on it - this may well not work out once back in the enclosure each time. Unles you know that the two grey ones are definately related specifically, it won't matter who gets on with who when you split into pairs.

We still don't know about clans enough - but it is possible that Glitch is the Boss and so if you take him out of the trio as they 'all get on' that then one of them will need to step up and become the new boss - but of course 2 might try their luck. You just never know who is who with gerbil clans - they always look like they love each other so much until it turns nasty!

[trevorc]

May 3, 2021 15:12:54 GMT -8 betty said:

Hello - and welcome to the forum.

... It doesn't seem strange though that the weaker pup is the one getting beaten up ...

Hi, thanks so much for this. Can I just check that should have been "does" rather than "doesn't" in that sentence? 

And am I right in thinking that the chances of us getting them back as a four together are pretty much negligible? 

[ps25]

Hi I had a similar situation a few years back. A group of 4 pups, about 5/6 months old. In my case it was the smallest one who started to pick on one of his brothers. We tried various attempts to diffuse the situation and for a short time removed the aggressor completely. We tried to reintroduce him a couple of days later. It looked like it had done the trick and all 4 were cozy together again. But about a week later, the little guy started bullying his brother again. At this point we realised he was never going to settle down and decided to permanently split the group up.

Once a gerbil decides they dont like someone, I dont think there is anything you can do about it :-( A 2+2 setup is usually best (although our little bully proved to be the exception and wouldnt settle with any of his former clan so we ended up with a successful 3+1 setup).  I should add, I woulnt recommend a 3+1 setup.  But it was the right thing for our boys.

[betty]

Yes, sorry - it was supposed to be does - I will re-edit the original.

The chances of all 4 getting back happily together aren't high, but they aren't impossible. What people's comments also take into account though is the long term too. Even if they go back together now for a few months or so - it just increases the chances of something going wrong later. Pairs are just usually more stable long term - so it is a kind of default suggestion. It is almost 'expected' that a large group will declan.

Groups can and often do work well - but the most reliable ones are sibling males and/or with their father. We do have a thread ongoing so hopefully as more people add to it we can start to see if there ARE and true patterns for declans - or whether we are just still relying on old anecdotes?

[betty]

Love that your little one was having none of ANY other gerbils ps25. I had a big group declan before and it was a mess too. Noone liked the gerbils I put them with at the time - there were trickle declans all over the place after the initial split.

You just can't tell which gerbils are which friends as they are masters of deceit sometimes.

[ps25]

Yep, even though he was the smallest and had an obvious grudge against one of his brothers, he wouldnt settle with either of the other two. The trio settled down immediately and were completely happy together. So the decision was made for us, even though I wanted to set up two pairs. Crazy little rats!

[trevorc]

May 4, 2021 5:32:04 GMT -8 betty said:

Yes, sorry - it was suposed to be does - I will reedit the original.

The chances of all 4 getting back happily together aren't high, but they aren't impossible. What people's comments also take into account though is the long term too. Even if they go back together now for a few months or so - it just increases the chances of something going wrong later. Pairs are just usually more stable long term - so it is a kind of default suggestion. It is almost 'expected' that a large group will declan.

Groups can and often do work well - but the most reliable ones are sibling males and/or with their father. We do have a thread ongoing so hopefully as more people add to it we can start to see if there ARE and true patterns for declans - or whether we are just still relying on old anecdotes?

Having said that Liquorice was the smallest and possibly runt of a litter, my wife - who's observed them much more than I have - tells me that he did seem to be pretty much dominant in behaviour before this, so the theory works that Glitch has taken over and Liquorice needs to set up again. 

[betty]

Cheeky little tykes - the pair of them...

Don't they know what trouble they have caused!