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Post by LilyandDaisy on May 18, 2021 10:09:00 GMT -8
We have a cherry tree in our garden (a cherry blossom tree that produces inedible fruit, in case that makes a difference). I always thought that anything cherry was off limits for gerbils but I noticed Rat Rations and a German gerbil food shop sell dried cherry leaves for small animals. Does anyone know if they're definitely safe to feed?
I was also wondering about the cherry wood. egerbil says it's unsafe but I've heard there's some debate on that.
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Post by betty on May 18, 2021 14:15:07 GMT -8
Like a lot of foods LilyandDaisy - ther are often historic blanket 'no' theories based on anything that might, could or has been proven only in high doses or in other animals.
I have heard a few reports that wood or leaves from the/any cherry (or any member of the prunus family: plums, peaches, apricots, nectarine, almonds) was a blanket no because of the cyanide (and other things) in the pits/stones. I have since read just now - that these chemical extend into the whole plant (but not the fruit) - and a dying prunus tree concentrates up the toxins (it doesn't say anything about a completely dead one?).
I have however - like you - seen several new products with cherry in - but of course if someone is creating 'new' treats (and the new trend for forage boxes) they may well be choosing things that sound nice even if not proven 100% safe or for that matter 100% unsafe.
I am ongoingly rather annoyed that the RSPCA STILL won't take the 'no grapes' comment off their site. However, as there is genuinely no scientific proof that it is or isn't toxic to gerbils (and I doubt there ever will be) it is there to stay - even though a million of us happily fed them?
Researching anything 'for gerbils' is notoriously difficult as often the only info is from intensive or 'extract of' studies - which of course no-one ever eats - and I am sure if we humans never ate anything that in a concentrated extract killed some mice - there might only be carrots left (I even recently read that red cabbage can be toxic or harmful for almost every animal (according to some reports) at one dose or another.
I'm not saying that these reports are right or wrong - as I don't think we will ever truly know of course - but if rat rations are actually selling them (as opposed to just having them for sale) - this must mean that they don't have an immediate or short-term harmful effect on rats at least.
However - wikipedia says: "Many [prunus] species are cyanogenic; that is, they contain compounds called cyanogenic glucosides, notably amygdalin, which, on hydrolysis, yield hydrogen cyanide.[16] Although the fruits of some may be edible by humans and livestock (in addition to the ubiquitous fructivory of birds), seeds, leaves and other parts may be toxic, some highly so.[17] The plants contain no more than trace amounts of hydrogen cyanide, but on decomposition after crushing and exposure to air or on digestion, poisonous amounts may be generated. "
[16] Armstrong, E. Frankland (1913). "Glucosides". In Davis, W.A.; Sadtler, Samuel S. (eds.). Allen's Commercial Organic Analysis. VII (Fourth ed.). Philadelphia: P. Blakiston's Son & Co. p. 102. Retrieved 5 December 2017. [17] Cook, Laurence Martin; Callow, Robert S. (1999). Genetic and evolutionary diversity: the sport of nature (2nd ed.). Cheltenham: Stanley Thornes. p. 135.
FYI (as I had to look this up while staying in France when the trees in the garden there started fruiting): All cherries are edible apparently - just that ornamental trees have been bred for display of blossom rather than taste. So pick an ornamental cherry and you may well need to cook it for a long time and add 7 bags of sugar? Luckily for me - mine were delicious (8 trees worth) and I felt like Jack Nicolas from the Witches of Eastwick in reverse...
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Post by LilyandDaisy on May 18, 2021 15:16:33 GMT -8
I think I'll leave the leaves and wood alone then. It seems like everything is poisonous if you research it enough, but since cherry is debated and there isn't much anecdotal evidence in its favour, I'll steer clear for now. After doing some more research it seems like poisoning from cherry trees is a common problem for people who keep livestock, especially goats. Specifically when the leaves fall the ground and wilt or are gathered up and left to decompose within reach of animals. As the Wikipedia article says, it's the wilting or decomposition process that increases the concentration of cyanide. Potentially drying the leaves right away might render them relatively safe for gerbils. This article says that cyanide decays or is lost to the air with time, which I assume would happen with dried leaves. Still, I'd rather not risk it when there are other leaves available. The cherries are extremely sour! I tried one once and regretted it. So technically edible but not very nice. Apparently birds eat them happily though.
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Post by betty on May 18, 2021 15:37:06 GMT -8
So true - something always kills someone if you give them enough?
Yes, and the livestock thing I found too on further reading - perhaps I will write to rat rations just out of interst to see why they chose them and how long they have been selling/using them?
Can just visualise you eating that cherry!!!!
I found out at the same time with my cherry research that Granny Smith apples are technically a cooking apple as they are so sour - but us Brits for some reason are one of the only places that really eats them raw? I found a weird article at the time that was saying which varieties are popular in different countries. Strange how things take off in one place and not another.
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Post by betty on May 18, 2021 16:41:07 GMT -8
Just looking on Rat Rations - Walnut, which is also in the leaf mix is also classed as an unsafe wood for gerbils (no evidence just a few 'safe lists').
It does say on the product though (not that they are always right elsewhere) for chins, goos, rabs and pigs - not even rats?
Also, which German Site is it - I was going to start ordering dried flowers from there after reading about it somewhere.
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Post by LilyandDaisy on May 18, 2021 16:50:02 GMT -8
I would think that anything that's safe for chinchillas or degus would be safe for rats or gerbils though (not necessarily the other way around). Rat Rations don't seem to have the bags of just cherry leaves anymore but they used to. They were the Hugro brand which is a good German brand.
The German site is rennmausladen.de but another one that sells lots of herbs and leaves (including cherry) is mixerama.de.
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Post by betty on May 18, 2021 17:14:25 GMT -8
Found this on a parrot site: ________________________
CHERRY The Cherry Tree is a controversial source of wood. There are confirmed cases of dogs and of horses having fatal reactions to eating cherry wood. However I have been unable to find any confirmed report of bird fatalities.
According to Gillian's page, the sap contains the toxic elements. If cherry is to be used it should be dry, debarked and any traces of sap removed.
Fresh cherry, foliage or bark, should never be given to birds. _________________________
However, I think I have made a breakthrough. Well, I kept reading about how livestock die if a branch dies or wilts after a storm - and I thought why aren't they dying when the tree is just there - not wilting?
Turns out - it tastes horrid. When wilted however, the process in the leaves produces exccesive sugar alongside cyanide. Sadly wilted leaves actively encourage livestock to eat them! How rude.
Anyway - here in one article it says: "If you choose to remove your livestock from the affected area, animals may be re-introduced once the leaves have been removed or dried."
Now although this doesn't say for sure that dried ones aren't poisonous - it does insunuate that the sugars and/or the toxins will have disappeared on becoming fully dry?
It is tough going as all the articles are about 'wilted leaves' - hard to sift through the ones that actually just talk about the biological processes in the plant! Why aren't people more thorough and reporting on ALL the possible outcomes for nerds like us!
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Post by LilyandDaisy on May 19, 2021 5:38:26 GMT -8
That's very interesting. If the fresh leaves taste horrid but sugars make them palatable, I assume the sugars would remain when the leaves are dried, or they wouldn't be eaten and hence sold. Though you can buy a lot of things that gerbils don't really like to eat.
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Post by betty on May 19, 2021 7:43:56 GMT -8
Yes indeed - you can certainly buy a lot of things that gerbils don't eat - $$$$
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Post by Markpd on May 27, 2021 11:21:09 GMT -8
That reminds me of the egerbil article about Dandelion leaves, it cited an old research paper (70s or 80s?) where they fed large amounts of caffiac acid to rats and mice and it gave many (all?) of them cancer. The trouble is that paper gave no indication of how much of that acid was in Dandelions, so I went hunting and found they'd been a ton of research into Dandelions more recently, and that acid, as it is an anti-oxidant, maybe beneficial as a supplement to people! Anyway, after reading several papers I was able to get a rough idea of how much caffiac acid is in Dandelions, and to get the dose that old paper had fed their rats and mice from Dandelions they'd have to eat kilo's of the stuff every day! Obviously a ludicrously impossible amount for them to eat .
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Post by tanzanyte on Jun 15, 2021 13:33:46 GMT -8
Oh no, I may have put our gerbils at risk as I bought some Borders flower mix recently which has dried cherries in and have been giving it to the gerbils. I checked on Moonstones page and it said the fruit was safe without the pit so I thought it would be ok.
It's interesting with the dandelion study, Mark. It's amazing how they cite these things when they aren't close to what would be a sensible amount to give a pet. It does make me shudder thinking about how they managed to get the rats and mice to consume that much.
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Post by LilyandDaisy on Jun 15, 2021 13:47:31 GMT -8
Oh no, I may have put our gerbils at risk as I bought some Borders flower mix recently which has dried cherries in and have been giving it to the gerbils. I checked on Moonstones page and it said the fruit was safe without the pit so I thought it would be ok. It's interesting with the dandelion study, Mark. It's amazing how they cite these things when they aren't close to what would be a sensible amount to give a pet. It does make me shudder thinking about how they managed to get the rats and mice to consume that much. Cherry fruits (de-stoned) are fine. It's the leaves and wood that are questionable and the stones are definitely unsafe. I heard of a man who became ill after eating 3 cherry stones. Usually when people accidentally swallow them they pass through undigested but this man decided to crack them and eat them, so the cyanide was absorbed more easily. Since gerbils are likely to gnaw the stones, they are definitely unsafe. The other day I saw something on egerbil about not feeding sprouted millet due to some chemical, which I want to look into further when I have time as I've never heard it before. I can't access the link right now as the Internet Archive is down but I think it was on this page: web.archive.org/web/20200603211700/http://www.egerbil.com/millet.html
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Post by betty on Jun 15, 2021 14:19:19 GMT -8
Plants are evil!
Some plants the seed itself is contains horrid things - some (green bits) of plants are only toxic when the seeds are on the plant, sometimes the green bits only have horrid things in them when they are new and others only while they are germinating/sprouted.
Some plants the seed itself is very nutritious - some (green bits) of plants are fine to eat when they seeds are on the plant, sometimes the green bits are fine when they are younger (worse when older) and others are fine when germinating/sprouted.
Every time, you have to check.
*shakes her fist at mother nature's trickery!!!
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Post by LilyandDaisy on Jun 15, 2021 14:41:08 GMT -8
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Post by betty on Jun 15, 2021 15:31:03 GMT -8
WOWZERS - 100g fatal to humans. That could be someone's last meal if they didn't read the packet!
Makes you wonder about feeding sougham to your bioactive gerbils (or anything else) seeds sprout all the time in moist soil! Imagine using your sourgham/dari from your Rosewood Pink'n'Fly in your gerbil garden!
I really hope pet suppliers deactivate it while they are drying it????? Might have to try to sprout some to check right now... (*running out to the garage).
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