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Post by Markpd on May 24, 2021 12:17:34 GMT -8
From looking this up about a year ago it seemed the minimum wheel size was generally recommended to be 8"(20 cm), I bought a 10" (25.5 cm) one to give them a bit more room.
Fast forwards to a few weeks ago, where I was discussing water bowls vs bottles in my greeting thread at the German forums, I posted a pic of my platform showing the wheel amongst other things. Where 1 person said he thought the wheel looked small and would hurt my gerbils! I said it was 25cm, and he said it should be at least 30cm (12"), I asked for some corroboration of this at which point he (but not others) had a bit of a hissy fit about this  , he even said, and I quote "I find that a little ridiculous with this research that you are asking for...." and "That doesn't need any scientific backing." 
Now apart from the fact that I didn't want only real research behind it (which I know is hard to come by), I had also asked for owners experience of this, which he said their was lots of. Yet no one was able to provide me of any examples (of back injuries from wheels 20-25+cm), collated or otherwise. In the end he bailed from the 'lively discussion' without providing even any anecdotal evidence.
However another member did provide a few links to vet/vet associations and a rescue ctr (thanks again to AROL  ), the following (you'll need translators, unless you can read German  ) :-
The TVT is the German Veterinary Association for Animal Welfare.
So anyone had gerbils have back problems with wheels from 20-27cm? Thoughts on their 30cm min?
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Post by LilyandDaisy on May 24, 2021 13:15:22 GMT -8
I've read the thread there. I can see that sources have been linked but those sources only say that small wheels can cause back damage etc, which is universally accepted. What they don't say is that a 25cm wheel will cause that damage. Most of the time when we talk about small wheels, we're thinking 15cm or even smaller, and I suspect that's what the sources are talking about as well. I think to use those sources to argue for 30cm wheels is like putting 2 and 2 together to make 5. You need a source that shows spinal damage in gerbils running on 25cm or 28cm wheels to argue that, which I don't think has ever been studied. One of those sources says 20cm for dwarf hamsters, even though dwarf hamsters range from 5-10cm in length, so I'm curious whether they're saying that all dwarf hamsters are going to suffer damage on a smaller than 20cm wheel, or is 20cm perhaps just a guide or ideal size? I suspect the latter. That said, I know a lot of English sources say 20cm minimum but I think that's too small personally. My gerbils could never run flat on a wheel that size. I think quoting English sources that say 20cm isn't going to help your case here. I wouldn't go smaller than 25cm for females, better 28cm+. As yours are males, potentially 25cm may be cramped for them. I can't say that for sure just from the wheel size though. I think a bigger wheel is probably a good idea, but that doesn't mean they're necessarily going to suffer permanent damage otherwise. They need to be running flat (not diagonally across the wheel), the tail should be held behind them, not forced upward or even curved over the back, and the straighter they can hold the tail the better. I have a 28cm wheel in each of my tanks and I think it's fine. Daisy is rather large so I would like to get her a 31cm wheel but I don't have £60 spare right now! But her back doesn't bend nor her does tail curve excessively. Rocket is fine as she's small and her tail is short from an old injury. Storm and Lily don't use the wheels. |
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Post by Markpd on May 25, 2021 10:31:44 GMT -8
Re min wheel size and the german links, agreed, which is why I found that guys response so ludicrous. I saw some links discussing wheel size for Hamsters talking about doubling their body size as a guide, so perhaps that source you read was using that 'rule'? Re the English 20cm min, yea I didn't say I agreed with it, only that it was counter to the German standard and I wanted info showing why 20 or 25cm is apparently wrong. As far as I've seen, Blake always runs straight on it, but Avon does sometimes run with his head poking over the edge of the wheel. At least 1 german guy did say that was a sign it's too small for them. Is that for (near) certain though? Their tales are slightly curved behind them, I don't think it's excessive, but I don't have any reference. And aside from those points, how would I know if it was too cramped? What I wanted to do is to take a slow motion video of them running on the wheel, but apparently only high end phones can do that. So what I'm going to try is to take a series of photos and hopefully I'll catch them out stretched showing their back and tail (hopefully not blurred!). Then I'll post the pics and we can get a better idea.
The only problem I have here is that my phone is very slow to take a photo when using the flash (a known quirk of my models phone since release), so it would be better if I could take it during the day, the trouble is my boys tend to only properly run on it during their midnight onwards activity!
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Post by LilyandDaisy on May 25, 2021 12:28:08 GMT -8
I don't know about the head poking out. I've never seen that before. He might want to stretch out more. Make sure his nose isn't bumping against the running surface as he runs as that might make him want to run with his head sticking out too. About the tail curvature, that's an uncertain issue as well. In Sweden they have quite extreme (in my opinion) views on wheels. They're completely anti-wheels for long-tailed rodents like gerbils, rats and mice, and rather iffy about them for hamsters as well. One reason is, they believe even very big wheels cause the tail to curve slightly when running and they believe that this causes long term damage. Honestly, I'm not really sure if that's true or not. However in order to have a completely straight tail, you would probably need something like a 40cm+ wheel, and I can't fit that in any of my enclosures. I do believe that the benefits of a wheel outweigh any potential, theoretical tail damage, which is why I still use 28cm wheels. When I first discovered the Swedish position I was a bit worried but I've since decided it might be a little bit overcautious. I mean how many gerbils do we actually see with confirmed tail damage from a 25cm or 28cm wheel? Gerbils will often raise their tails when they're running very fast anyway (or digging very vigorously). This is a Swedish article on wheels if you're interested: gerbiler.ifokus.se/discussion/1323598/hur-bra-ar-springhjulet-egentligen. This is a forum post where someone asked if there was any evidence against wheels: gerbiler.ifokus.se/discussion/715053/springhjul-daliga-finns-bevis. I would say just watch them when they're running and see if they seem limited in their movements. Like I said, they would probably get on better with a larger wheel but it's up to you. The tail definitely shouldn't be forced sharply upwards at the base, nor should they be forced to hold their heads up with a bent neck. This is a clip of Daisy running on her 28cm wheel: www.youtube.com/watch?v=7xwA8BoSQTA. She weighs 106g currently so I suspect she's a similar size to your boys. She's a similar size or a bit bigger than my male Storm, so probably big for a female. This is a still from the video where she's stretched out:  |
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Post by betty on May 25, 2021 16:11:55 GMT -8
Perhaps thats what someone needs to invent - more of a treadmill that is elongated (like a tank track) so that they are totally flat - tail and all. This negates the need for height?
However, I have no idea how you would keep with working parts covered too - with a track?
I am with you though - I think the mental health benefits of having a wheel far outweigh the risk of a potentially kinked tail? I am sure if there was evidence to prove that curved running caused incontinence or lack of mobility in old age - I am sure I would start inventing that track (or trying to find a 3ft high topper for all my enclosures).
However, lack of evidence doesn't prove that it DOESN'T cause them pain in later life - but perhaps proving back pain in a gerbil is just an impossible thing? Hmm, difficult thought process. Thanks for the link to the thread - will have a good read...
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Post by Markpd on May 26, 2021 11:24:54 GMT -8
Re treadmill, funny I was thinking exactly that the other week! But yea, I was also thinking it would possibly be impossible to keep the mechanism unclogged, not to mention light enough and durable enough to be useable. Have their been threads here of gerbils harmed by too small wheels (of any size)? Their must have been at least some from way back with titchy wheels? Btw, even on flat surfaces some animals run with the tail up anyway (I'm thinking of random nature films over the years), are we sure that gerbils don't run with their tails up on flat surfaces? I started to look on youtube last night for gerbil videos showing them running in the wild, nothing yet, but maybe I'd be better off looking for pet gerbils running in large enclosures? [edit] The following one seems to be the best one so far (not great quality), it looks like they run with their tails raised a little? www.youtube.com/watch?v=NesNLPI-HcsRe the Swedish links, seems to me in both posts that the articles are entirely heresay, no evidence or even anecdotal data was provided. And personally I think their idea that even big wheels (say 28cm+) are harmful is hysterical and bonkers! |
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Post by LilyandDaisy on May 26, 2021 12:46:30 GMT -8
I agree, the Swedish articles are lacking in evidence. Some of the threads I read spoke of rat studies that showed damage as if everyone reading would know what they were on about, but when I googled I could mostly only find studies showing psychological and physical benefits to lab rats provided with wheels. Even if there were studies showing clear harm, you have to balance that against the studies showing benefits when making a decision.
They only raise their tails when they're running really fast and unhindered, which they can only usually do on a wheel. Even in a large cage, they can't get up the same speed as on a wheel. It's not constant, but when they're running really fast the tail will occasionally flip over their backs! The thing with a small wheel is that it forces them to hold them tail constantly upright.
I haven't ever heard of a gerbil being obviously harmed by a small wheel, but I think usually if it's very uncomfortable they just won't use it.
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Post by Markpd on May 27, 2021 10:43:32 GMT -8
They only raise their tails when they're running really fast and unhindered, which they can only usually do on a wheel.
Yea that's why I started off looking at gerbils in the wild videos, but they're very thin on the ground.
Hence I looked for large enclosure videos, and found that one I edited into my post, did you see that? (you might have missed my edit).
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Post by LilyandDaisy on May 27, 2021 12:06:02 GMT -8
Yes, I saw that video. When they're in their cage or running around outside the cage, there's always something to stop and investigate so they rarely just run like they on a wheel. This is one reason why a wheel is beneficial even if they have a huge tank and lots of free roaming time. In fact mine will sometimes stop to use the wheel if it's out when they're free roaming. Even wild rodents (and frogs) will use a wheel in the wild! By the way, watch the frog video linked in that article, it's hilarious. |
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Post by Markpd on May 28, 2021 10:11:41 GMT -8
Interesting they use the wheel when they're free roaming, clearly they like it . Ah yea I remember the wheel in the wild study (is linked in the science section here), fascinating! I don't think I've seen the frog video, will check that out, thanks . |
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Post by betty on May 28, 2021 15:31:08 GMT -8
My doops always use their wheels when out in my 'handling' demi-run (a large flat almost metre-square shallow enclosure).
Perhaps they love it - or they feel comfortable in it when in unfamiliar surroundings? Either way, I never have doops out in their runs without at least one wheel available - and I never handle them out of wheel - it is their safe space so to speak.
Not sure if it hinders taming or not - but I feel guilty if they don't have one?
I'm going in for the frog video right now - can't wait!
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Post by betty on May 28, 2021 15:32:19 GMT -8
Bad news already on the link - that is a harvest mouse in the picture - not a sleepy dormouse!
...and BTW - harvest mice LOVE wheels.
Post link edit:
Great little snippet thanks for that link - and I just feel sorry for the slug. I just think he got stuck on there by accident! He could have been on there for hours before understanding how to get off?
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Post by LilyandDaisy on May 28, 2021 15:40:06 GMT -8
Whatever it is, it's adorable!
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Post by Markpd on May 29, 2021 15:23:07 GMT -8
Bad news already on the link - that is a harvest mouse in the picture - not a sleepy dormouse! ...and BTW - harvest mice LOVE wheels. Post link edit: Great little snippet thanks for that link - and I just feel sorry for the slug. I just think he got stuck on there by accident! He could have been on there for hours before understanding how to get off? Did you see the frog?
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Post by tanzanyte on Jun 3, 2021 11:49:05 GMT -8
We allow the boys to free roam around the room and Pepsi always runs with his tail curled right up. Max less so, although he tends to walk everywhere as he isn't as scared as Pepsi. I'll try and watch a bit more and see if Max's tail is curved.
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, he even said, and I quote "I find that a little ridiculous with this research that you are asking for...." and "That doesn't need any scientific backing." 
), the following (you'll need translators, unless you can read German 
) :-
), late 70s
