Help - Avon and Blake declanned!!?? :(

[Markpd]

Was watching a video just after finishing dinner, and I suddenly hear super fast running from my boys cage, Avon is chasing Blake, a couple of times around the cage before Blake hid, each time he comes out, shortly but not immediately after Avon chases him again (both running flat out). One time Blake stayed in a tunnel, Avon poked his nose in and Blake was squeaking, they stayed like that for about 1/2 a  minute, then Avon left him to it.

A little while later Blake came out nervously, Avon seemed to ignore him, but shortly after Blake stopped running on the wheel, Avon chased him again (forgot to say, a couple of the earlier chases started off from the wheel, but not all).

Anyway, the final chase Avon caught Blake and it looked like a ball fight, although with it being under the platform I couldn't see properly, but it was furious, although no blood drawn. After that I managed to get Blake out to the sandpen, and then shortly after Avon to the Rotastak, where I've closed him in for now. I then put Blake back in the cage.

Have they properly declanned?? They've been separated now for about 30-40 mins, would it be safe to try to put them back together??? I know if they are apart for about more than a couple of hours, then they would need a split intro anyway right? I need to get washed and get ready for bed, so I can't watch over them!

Also forgot to say, Avon isn't happy cramped up in the Rotastak , I'm going to see if I can securely hook it up to the sandpen.

PS Neither of them were out in the sandpen prior to all this!

Hoping that people are still up and on the forum, fingers crossed! betty LilyandDaisy Thea  tanzanyte yeti218 and any other experienced owners!

[edit]Sandpen tube secured to Rotastak

[londongerbils]

Oh no, what a stress. I hope someone can give you some helpful advice. I haven’t had this situation before but a couple of times one of my females went through a phase of aggressively chasing her neutered male partner out of the playpen, it was pretty horrible but it only occurred in the playpen so I knew it was a specific trigger. Do you think they were fighting over the wheel?

[Markpd]

Possibly, but I don't know what triggered the 1st chase....

[betty]

OK - sounds like it might be a declan - but not 100% finished yet - so it is up to you whether you want/have time tonight to try a few things to see if you can save it?

My first suggestion would always be for the gerbils - as declans can be very stressful even if noone gets bitten. If you have somewhere secure to keep them apart that would be the safest bet if you can't stay up and watch them.


If you are SURE that Avon wasn't going to let up - and actively attack Blake at every opportunity, then I wouldn't want to leave them together again while this attack/moment is underway.

Obviously, thinking of ANYTHING that could have triggered it means it might be reversible. So new toy, new smells, something different that you haven't done before in their environment (inside or outside of their enclosure) like windows open, baking, cleaning etc. Or something you have done before but not for as long as today.


My trick is always everything out of the enclosure like a shared split OR a filled up enclosure - cram that tank full of hay, shredded paper and cardboard so they don't have time to chase each other.


Difficult times.

Certainly a split intro after this wouldn't harm anyone - especially if you can't leave them together anyway right now?

[LilyandDaisy]

If you can't watch them closely for the next few hours you definitely shouldn't put them back together now. I don't know how hard and fast the rules are for after how many hours apart you need to do a split tank. Some people say just a couple of hours, others say more like 24 hours, but a split tank is certainly the safest option.

I would say there is a difference between full-blown declan chasing and intimidation/bullying chasing, which is still very concerning but not without hope. I've experienced the latter kind of chasing with a male pair I looked after for two weeks and while I don't know what happened to them when they went home, I was able to calm them down somewhat by removing the shelves in their gerbilarium and generally keeping it quite bare, with no nooks where one could trap another.

[yeti218]

Oh no! I'm so sorry to hear this. I'm not sure what I can offer besides condolences.

Definitely would keep them apart for now if you cant supervise. Avon will get over it. If you try to put them back together I'd maybe keep the wheel out for a bit if you think some chases started there.

Keep up updated.

[Markpd]

Thanks for the quick replies folks

So atm Blake is in the cage and Avon is in the Rotastak coupled to the sandpen (and I've managed to squeeze the wheel in their to give the poor fella something to do!).
I should've gone to bed 1/2hr ago so I haven't got time for anything more tonight, so they'll be staying separate tonight.

But good to know this might at least not be a full declan.

So do you guys think it would be safe to put them back together tomorrow evening after I've come back from work? (5.30 ish, I'll be able to keep an eye on them for a few hours at least). Or at that point would the best thing to do to split the cage? (I'd forgotten to make a divider for these events so I'd have to go to my dads and make one there after work!).

betty
If you are SURE that Avon wasn't going to let up - and actively attack Blake at every opportunity, then I wouldn't want to leave them together again while this attack/moment is underway.

I'm not sure that he won't let up, but after what happened I don't trust him to not attack again either (or chase at least, I don't believe he bit Blake) when I can't watch them.

Can't think what triggered this, nothing new in the cage or my house, unless you include strawberries and raspberries in my kitchen!

I did weigh them today, but that was very brief and hasn't caused problems before, I'm at a loss....

yeti218

Yea some chases started when Blake jumped off the wheel, others simply when Blake did a runner from Avon even though he wasn't doing anything! It's like Avon suddenly got the hunting instinct as Blake scurried away!

[LilyandDaisy]

You could try putting them straight back together tomorrow evening but there's always a certain amount of risk involved. If you do I would suggest scaling the tank back to the bare essentials: relatively shallow bedding, two water bottles, scattered food, cardboard and hay, no wheel or places one can trap another. As you have a 4 foot tank, ideally you would want to split it in half to create a smaller space, but if you're going to do that, I suppose you might as well make a split tank divider as well and take the less risky approach.

[betty]

That would be my recommendation if this continues after reintroducing them. A gerbil usually just chases off someone who is annoying them, not carrying it on after the initial grump (like a defensive or scared dog - all barking and stomping) but if the other one leaves they should back off - not go on looking for them over and over. If he doesn't let up whatever you do - then they need to be split for a decent period of time to fully cool off - if not for ever depending on your situation.

______


I can't imagine it would be the strawberries - but you never know if a cat or whatever had scentmarked on them (or your shoes if you went to an allotment/farm shop) - but that is clutching at straws really.

It is possibly that it is hormone driven of course - and it just went a bit out of hand today for no good reason? But yes, if you want them as friends again - then my plan would be one or all of the three things already mentioned:

Try them tomorrow while you can watch - reducing things where appropriate.
Cooling off period for at least a week in a totally unscented location (so they are both starting fresh)
Permanent split - (or new friends?)



Such as shame if it doesn't work out - they don't know how lucky they are to have you and that giant enclosure.

[Thea]

Oh no! I'm so sorry - I'm not sure what I can say apart from agreeing with what's been said - I do hope those two can be reintroduced if needed or that it wasn't a declan

[Markpd]

Despite the fact that I partially forgot some of the recommendations you guys made (i.e minimising the bedding), although I did leave the wheel out of the cage, kept the Rotastak away from the cage and did not give them access to the sandpen, I also gave them some hay, some loo roll tubes and lots of kitchen roll to keep them busy, they seem to be getting on ok over the 3hrs I was watching them (they're still up and about atm).
Avon is behaving as good as gold (he was nervous at 1st), although he is pretty much ignoring Blake, bar the occasional pawing 'hello'(?), and is much more interested in digging!
Strangely though, Blake is being a little bolshie, he's tried to hump Avon, who just hops away, Blake chases him for a few hops then just lets him go about his business, this has happened about 1/2 a dozen times over about 2hrs. A couple of times they were both in the hut together (I think it still has a tunnel exit), I couldn't see what was going on, but their was no squeaking, no sounds of violent movements and no rapid running.

Avon doesn't seem bothered by it all, but really! Is Blake trying to provoke the bear?? Wth!? lol

So, assuming they carry on getting on ok, how long should I leave the wheel out? I plan to deny them access to the sandpen for at least a week as that used to cause tension between them in the past (although not recently, and neither of them were in it last night prior to the fight).
Either of them visiting the Rotastak hasn't bothered the other in several months, whether 1 or both of them were in it briefly or ages,  (it used to freak Avon out when he could hear Blake digging in it, but not realise it was him, but as I said, that was several months ago) how long should I deny them access to that?

I will build a divider anyway, in case things kick off again, maybe Saturday, more likely Sunday, I hope they're ok until at least then!

betty
Re berries, thinking about it they were in the lounge at the time, as I was about to eat them when it all kicked off! I'd left them to soak previously for 1-2hrs and then rinsed them afterwards too so I hope they were clean! I haven't been ill today (the lone strawberry was particularly nice, although I couldn't really enjoy them at the time!). The berries came from my garden and I left my shoes in the hall (I mostly do).

Thanks for the help and messages of support guys

PS Still seem to be getting along ok, and I've not seen Blake harass Avon in about an hr now I think, and they seemed to be briefly huddled up under the platform a few minutes ago , fingers crossed!

[yeti218]

Glad things are going well so far. Hoping it continues.

[betty]

Has it?

[Markpd]

Yes I think so, I did briefly put the wheel back in to see what happened, but beforehand I cleaned up the platform where it sits. This (as usual) excites (agitates??) them, they get all hyper when I sweep up the platform, and they like to try to chew the brushes bristles! lol. Anyway, I put the wheel in after doing that, when they were still in that excited state, they each briefly ran on the wheel and then shortly after Avon chased Blake, it was a fast chase but it stopped at the other end of the cage, they then were intensely butt sniffing and pawing each other (as best as I could see), I then moved a piece of kitchen roll which was partly covering them, but this panicked Blake and he bolted off and started thumping (Avon didn't chase him). So my inadvertent interruption stopped their interaction and I'm not sure whether it was hostile or not, but I didn't want to risk it so I removed the wheel again.
A little while later I saw them grooming each other under the platform (where Blake had stayed after I spooked him) and they huddled and fell asleep there , so yea I think they're doing ok.
I'm just not sure if that 1 chase was as a result of them getting excited by me cleaning the platform, or whether it was a result of the wheel. At a later point I will put the wheel back in again when I can watch them for a couple of hours or so.

Btw, I put it back in because Avon was obsessively digging in a corner and chewing the wire mesh, the former I've never seen him do before and the latter rarely, so he was clearly bored/frustrated .
I don't know what I'm going to if the wheel is the trigger for Avon's aggression! He clearly needs/wants it (and to a lesser extent, as does Blake probably), but I can't have a single wheel in there if it is the trigger. I've thought about having 2 wheels in there with 2 platforms, but that would take up quite a lot of the cages surface area (although a 2nd platform wouldn't need to be as big as the 1st one, as it won't have a sandbath or rocks on it).
If I did do that I would also buy a bigger wheel, would be interesting to see if Avon preferred a bigger wheel and if he runs without poking his head over the side. But, it would be quite an expensive outlay (I'd get another tictac wheel, so there's no chance of chewing issues), just looked at prices, I could get a clearance (black) 12" wheel for £41, £21 for the stand + postage!

[betty]

If you want to try a wheel - yes, make it a completely different one and a different size - maybe smaller temporarily - just ot see if it is A wheel of THAT wheel.

Perhaps putting the wheel in a different place could also be a factor. Just thinking about reseting the situation always. Sometimes just putting something back isn't enough - other things need to change to reset them. For example, if you were sick of your flat mate for something they did - changing the sofa wouldn't make you like them again. Swapping the dining room for the lounge, buying new books to read and adding new furniture might?