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Post by Markpd on Oct 11, 2021 11:08:53 GMT -8
Anyone tried a permanent split cage as an answer to a declan? Did it work out in the long run?
As some of you may know my boys had a 2nd declan recently (with blood drawn  , fortunately they are both ok), so I won't be re-introducing them.
I'm not keen on the idea of having a 2nd tank and intro'ing new gerbils (which might not work out). So atm they are in the same tank, with the divider in. Neither seemed stressed out by the other, they often nose touch each other through the mesh, or simply ignore each other. Last time I split them like this, although it was only for a month, neither seemed lonely or depressed. Of course this time the split will be permanent. Could having they're brother next door suffice for their social needs? Would like to hear from people who've done it, or know someone directly who has done it.
Btw, of course they now have 1/2 the space they used to, so I'm going to buy a truly enormous tank (7ft long! 2nd hand) and split that, that'll give them each nearly as much space as they had in their current cage before it was split  . It's going to be a mission to move that and get it up to my maisonette!
[edit 1 - 1/22] 3 months on and they're still doing fine in the perm split [edit 2 - 22/12/22] 14 months on and still good  . [edit 3 - 28/12/22] A few days after I posted that update Avon passed away  , but both were happy in the perm split up to the end.
I've collected a few reports of past owners of perm splits, see this post. |
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Post by betty on Oct 30, 2021 9:13:00 GMT -8
Looks like noone has had such an experience then Markpd - so maybe it is up to you to try this first and give feedback?
Did you get the new giant tank up the stairs yet?
I have never really used a permanent split as I always had another pup or whatever to pair someone up with - but seeing as some comments on here are saying that they seem to be quite relaxed in the split set up (rather than stressed at an enemy living next door) I don't see why it wouldn't be fine to have them side by side with a bit of interaction.
I had always thought that a stressed and bullied gerbil after a terrible declan would in no way want to be near the other gerbil ever again - but perhaps this can be 'got over' with time and 'safe' neighbourly living is a decent gerbil consideration?
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Post by Markpd on Nov 2, 2021 12:31:19 GMT -8
Yikes! I don't like to be the pioneer with something like this! lol Yes we got the tank up the stairs ok, wasn't as hard as I'd thought it would be, partly because the tank was smaller than they said it would be (grrr) and so lighter too. But to get over the banister wall on the landing, the tank had to be lifted over his head! (for the person at the bottom), something I was concerned about as I estimated the tank would weigh ~100 kgs! And seeing as my stairs are roughly 45 degrees that meant quite a bit more than 1/2 the weight for the bottom person (my stairs aren't really wide enough for 2 people side by side either!), anyway, he lifted it easily  (he goes to the gym, no coincidence I asked him to help too  ). It's funny, the day after the fight, they were quite happily digging etc next to each other by the divider, and nose touching quite a bit. You'd never know anything bad had happened! About a week and a half after the fight, because of a mistake I made, Avon got into Blake's side!!  I hadn't twigged until I realised they had both been quiet for a bit (after being very active). They had both gone underground, so I stood over the tank and listened intently. I couldn't hear any fighting, so I resisted the temptation to tear out all the bedding to get one out. I did try calling them, but it had no effect. After what felt like an eternity (probably only ~20s! lol), Avon nonchalantly hopped out. I hoped Blake would join him so I could see their interaction, but he didn't and then Avon went back! Arrgh, I had missed a chance to catch him! Anyway it was still quiet, so I waited and ~10s later Avon came out alone again, I paused a few seconds (in case Blake came out this time) then distracted him at the front with one hand, and grabbed him by the base of his tail with the other and lifted him out promptly onto the above ledge! He then ran off to his side, phew! Blake stayed quiet and underground for a few minutes, where he had been super active before Avon got in, so I can only assume he was scared of Avon and so remained hidden. But no fight at least! Blake seemed fine when he finally did surface. And seeing as their accidental meeting didn't end up in another fight, about a week or so later I thought I'd see how they both got on together in just the sandpen (no deep bedding there, and easy to access them). On the 1st meeting they sniffed each other for a few seconds and then Avon left, so the next day I tried again, but this time they went side by side instantly with arched backs! I separated them instantly. I haven't tried again since, but I might try again in 3-6 mths to see if they've calmed down and can play together. But even if they do, I will never trust them to live together again. A shame really, not just because they won't have the good interaction, but it would have been great to see them both run and dig the full length of a 7ft tank! Atm the 7ftr isn't ready for them to use, although I do allow them, separately, access to the tank as a temporary play pen ( see here), not much in there though! In there is the new wheel (12" this time), which I've corked lined and plastikoted, and also the new platform, which I only finished yesterday. I still need to clean nearly the whole of the tank (lots of limescale), I have cleaned about 1/3 of it, but even that section needs more cleaning. My descaler spray only has limited affect! Any suggestions there? (Not vinegar, as it smells too strong). I also need to get a Coffee table (or similar) for the tank to sit on, and extend the sides of the tank upwards to improve on it's (and the other tank's) digging depth.
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Post by LilyandDaisy on Nov 2, 2021 12:50:30 GMT -8
Gerbils don't really do playing together. They're either a bonded clan, or they're not, not anything in between. I have read that some wild gerbil tunnel systems are large enough that they house more than one clan, each having separate burrows and corridors, but they might bump into each other where one clan's tunnel ends and the other's begins. So I suppose this could be considered the wild analogy to a permanent split (living in proximity but not together), though this probably isn't gerbils that have declanned. I suppose the larger the split tank, the more space they have to avoid each other if they want to though, if that doesn't defeat the purpose of the split tank The limescale stains might need to soak in descaler for 30 or 60 minutes. I don't know how you'd do that in a tank though. Maybe turn it on each side in turn, and put sponges soaked in descaler on the stains? |
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Post by Markpd on Nov 3, 2021 12:24:15 GMT -8
Interesting points, and now that you mention it I recall reading about different clans coming across each other too. If my boys are hostile to each other at another meeting in 3-6 mths, then that will be the last attempt. I'm just wondering if they would get along for a short time for some direct interaction for them. Re split tank, well I'm using it as a permanent split rather than a temporary one prior to an intro, I have no intentions to have them living together again, so no problem if they ignore each other more . Thanks for the descaling tip too , rather than sponges though I could use kitchen roll, if it doesn't disintegrate! |
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Post by betty on Nov 4, 2021 11:51:34 GMT -8
As for the descaling - have you used a glass scraper (a small hard version of the crappy £1.99 ice scraper for your car) - that can get a lot of crusty stuff off tanks too.
And as for a coffee table - did you say you were in Worthing - I can't remember now as I know a great second hand place if it is still there that ALWAYS has loads of stuff that can be repurposed for gerbils at really low prices: Guild Care: The Greenhouse Charity Warehouse (just off the seafront road where the cut through is from the A259 to the A27/Sainsbury).
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Post by Markpd on Nov 4, 2021 13:33:57 GMT -8
Sadly not, although I'm not a million miles away, I'm near Aldershot.
Wouldn't a hard scraper scratch the glass?
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Post by ps25 on Nov 7, 2021 15:17:50 GMT -8
I guess we are pioneering the permenent split tank together :-D My bad boys seem quite happy in their permanent split. They frequently greet each other through the mesh and nest next to each other. One of them is more likely to sit and be stroked more nowadays. I dont know if thats because he misses being groomed by a companion or he's just matured and likes to sit and be stroked now. But that seems to be the only difference in behaviour. I am planning on eventually finding other companions for them both but for now this seems to be working.
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Post by Markpd on Nov 8, 2021 15:51:03 GMT -8
Good to hear , how long have they been split? |
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Post by betty on Nov 20, 2021 2:34:40 GMT -8
And no if it is a flat wide scraper - it won't scratch flat glass because it can't. Physics doesn't allow any scratching as the two surfaces are both flat (or one is subtly convex). Things only get scratched with a knife or whatever as its contact surface is curved or toothed - even if only fractionaly - and it is the difference in pressure on the protruding bits that cause the scratching.
I have always used a scraper and never had any issues - just like on my car with ice.
Mind you Markpd - this post is over a week old now - so perhaps you sorted it some other way anyway?
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Post by Markpd on Dec 1, 2021 12:42:04 GMT -8
Good to know, and no I haven't cleaned it yet as I had been sorting out holiday stuff, and other tank things.
Btw re scrapers on windscreens, using hard plastic ones can scratch the glass, not because of the plastic itself, but due to any grit that gets caught in between, so always safer to use one with a rubber blade.
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Post by Markpd on Dec 4, 2021 10:22:50 GMT -8
Only read the 1st page so far, but at least a few people have had success with permanent splits |
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Post by Markpd on Dec 5, 2021 6:32:13 GMT -8
ps25How long have your boys been in a permanent split now? And are they still getting on ok?
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Post by Markpd on Jan 21, 2022 12:47:25 GMT -8
*ahem* ps25  Re the Permanent split thread, turns out that it was mostly talk about building the cage, not so much about how the gerbils got on, although a few people did report their gerbils getting on well in them. I will quote them here for future reference. Btw I unstuck that thread as a lot of the photos about the various builds were missing, with the authors being MIA for many years. I'm tempted to pin my own thread instead, to gain more perm split experiences.... From the 2005 thread ' Q's - Making Permenent Split Cage' I've used permanent split tanks on different occasions for gerbils who wouldn't pair or who had declanned. I have a three-way permanent split in my 75 gallon tank right now: [dead pic link deleted] It's a little more crowded than I like, but I give the boys extra out of tank playtime to make up for it. Here are some others I've had: 30 breeder [dead pic link deleted] 40 gallon [dead pic link deleted] 75 gallon, 2-way split [dead pic link deleted] As far as how they work, I've never had one not work. The gerbils I've had living in them have all done very well. The boy living in the center section of the permanent split tank I have now is a real problem child. He loves other gerbils, but they don't like him, and he can't be kept on his own because he gets very depressed. I put him in the middle section between two other adult males and voilà!--it worked like a charm. He's lived in the permanent split tank for over 6 months and he's a happy boy. RW I have a 29 gallon I used for a while to permanently split cage 2 grumpy old males, but they ended up pairing I also have a 15 gallon I use for regular split caging... that way it gives each occupant more room instead of the diagonal in the 10 gallon. I love your setups!!! Very cool, dividing the larger tanks  I have a 33 long (same size as 55 gallon... 48" long, 12.5" deep, and 13.5" tall) that I was considering splitting in two with plexiglass or glass to house 2 separate pairs... Thanks, Kim. I've taken in quite a few older gerbils who'd been living alone for a long time before I got them. I'm pretty good at resisting cute pups and happy pairs, but a single gerbil with a hard luck story is my weakness. Seven of the 12 I have now fall into that category. Most had never even seen another gerbil since they were separated from their litter and sometimes it can take a while to find another same-sex gerbil they'll accept, sometimes they've been resistant to pairing at all, like they've totally forgotten they're supposed to need a friend. In those situations, I've found all of them have been happier living in a permanent split, where they can see and smell another gerbil, but he/she can't touch them or their stuff, than in their own separate tank. They mostly ignore the gerbil on the other side of the divider, which I found surprising in the first couple of permanent splits I did. No lurking around the divider, pining for the other gerbil, they just do their little gerbil things like the other gerbil isn't there. I've never tried a permanent split with pairs, but I think maybe someone on the AGS list has or did at one time. I think she used plexiglass for her dividers, but I can't remember for sure. RW Yeah... I kept 2 pairs in my 29 split with plexi for some time, beware of plexi, they CAN chew on it... I removed the occupants and put my mice in there (they appreciated the climbing room more anyways) because they were chewing on the plexi and I did not want 2 clans to meet... Oh, and my "antisocial" male that eventually took to a cagemate, they were split caged for over 6 months... I had 2 retired breeding females kept in a split as well for 5 months before they accepted each other... Some gerbils take a few days, others take months to nearly years... From other threads :- By the way I have the glass tanks with the two glass shelves along the long sides too. I have the lids resting on these shelves. I've used an L shaped piece of metal glued to each side half way along and used nuts and bolts to secure the mesh to the metal on either side. This has given me a small gap on top too due to the shelf being in the way at the top as you say. I've just had a look and both gaps are about 1cm and no gerbils have ever got over. To make the gap as small as possible on one tank I had to attach a piece of wood across the width of the lid, underneath the lid and roughly where the mesh is. Hope that makes some sense to you! Also if you have a large enough tank (the ones I have described are 3foot) then you can always use them for a permanent split if you are unable to introduce the gerbils properly after all. I have quite wide mesh in mine so the two can groom each others noses and sides and they have enough interaction to stop them being really really lonely. I use the permanent split for loners who I don't think I can introduce or who I don't have a suitable partner for just at the moment, or when males and females need a little company but I don't want an actual pregnancy. |
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Post by Markpd on Dec 28, 2022 4:01:06 GMT -8
Updated op, Blake and Avon were happy in the perm split up until Avon passed away on the 26th So that was a little over 14 months. |
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, fortunately they are both ok), so I won't be re-introducing them.
.
. 
, but both were happy in the perm split up to the end. 
), late 70s
(he goes to the gym, no coincidence I asked him to help too 
).
I hadn't twigged until I realised they had both been quiet for a bit (after being very active). They had both gone underground, so I stood over the tank and listened intently. I couldn't hear any fighting, so I resisted the temptation to tear out all the bedding to get one out. I did try calling them, but it had no effect. After what felt like an eternity (probably only ~20s! lol), Avon nonchalantly hopped out. I hoped Blake would join him so I could see their interaction, but he didn't and then Avon went back! Arrgh, I had missed a chance to catch him! Anyway it was still quiet, so I waited and ~10s later Avon came out alone again, I paused a few seconds (in case Blake came out this time) then distracted him at the front with one hand, and grabbed him by the base of his tail with the other and lifted him out promptly onto the above ledge! He then ran off to his side, phew! 
I have a 33 long (same size as 55 gallon... 48" long, 12.5" deep, and 13.5" tall) that I was considering splitting in two with plexiglass or glass to house 2 separate pairs...