Scooby cage aggression

[stellamaris]

I’m at a loss.
In the past couple of weeks, Scooby has gotten very cage aggressive. He’s in a 15 gal with a topper. Earlier, he ‘charged’ me when I was wiping his wheel (see ’Scooby & I fight), and a couple of days ago, after I’d placed a hay-filled tube in his tank and was withdrawing my hand, he nipped me.
This morning, he was up and down between his tank and topper, looking like he wanted a fight. (Don’t know how to describe that; just kinda puffy and energetic and close to the front of the cage.). In order to refill his food and water, I pulled up the ladder when he wasn’t looking so I could put my hands in his topper w/o getting attacked. He ran madly around his tank looking upset.
I’ve been giving him a hay-filled tube at night to keep him entertained, and it’s gone in the morning. So I’ve been giving him one in the morning which is usually gone by night. I thought that was a good thing to do, but maybe he hates me putting anything in his tank? I don’t disturb his bed or anything.
He’s still ok during floor time. (He hops into his travel cage to be transferred.). He climbs around on me, expecting treats - which he usually gets. Is that a bad thing? I can scoop him, especially when I have a treat, and, after getting a treat, he’ll sit on my knee while I groom him.
I clean his tank every 3 weeks or so, scatter old substrate and keep most of his bed. Last time, after I finished, he made a few trips to carry bedding up to his sandbowl where he made a nest. This morning, after I briefly trapped him in his bin, he again spent some time sleeping in his sandbowl.
It seems like he’s feeling insecure and defensive. I don’t know how I can keep him fed & watered, enriched, and his poops and pee cleaned w/o pissing him off. I’m thinking about getting safety-gloves.
Any ideas?

[LilyandDaisy]

I've heard of a couple of cases of cage aggression and they've always been in lone gerbils unfortunately. I'm sure you would if you could, but is getting him a friend at all a possibility right now?

With hamsters, a larger cage can often reduce or even eliminate cage aggression. I'm not sure if the same would be true for gerbils but it might be worth a try. Dwarf hamsters can become aggressive in small cages because they feel trapped and like they have nowhere to hide, so a hand in the cage feels very threatening. Like with Scooby, they're typically fine outside the cage.

[stellamaris]

Thanks, LilyandDaisy.
Unfortunately, I live on an island and the ferry only brings girl gerbils to the local pet stores (the boys go somewhere else). They're all from rodent mills. I might be able to 'special order' a rodent mill boy; I could ask.
Meanwhile, I'll see if I can arrange a larger tank. For now, I'll do maintenance in the evening when he's in his play pen. (Which he managed to jump out of last night! Luckily, onto my lap in hopes of a treat.)
Ah well, keeps me entertained, I guess!

[Mygerbiliscute]

Sorry, I don't really have any good advice.
But I was intrigued to hear that Scooby was so upset about your removing the ladder to his topper! My boys would have gone right ahead and jumped into the topper - without waiting for the ladder!
Is that really so unusual? I just assumed it was something gerbils do...

[stellamaris]

The ladder folds up into the floor of the topper, blocking it off. Otherwise he for sure would have jumped.

[tanzanyte]

3 weeks might be quite quick for a clean out. Especially as it's quite a stressful thing for them.
I do ours every 6-8 weeks, keep 2/3rds of bedding and spend quite a while spot cleaning through the kept bedding (I have the opportunity as they are happy in their play area for the duration so I appreciate this isn't always possible for others).
I clean the sand bath out daily and do spot cleans around their food area when I replace the food and water. My girls are a little more skittish when I do this, but I always stop and keep still if they show any signs of stress.

Do you rub your hands through Scooby's bedding before doing anything else in the cage? It might be worth a try as it helps when you smell more normal for them. If you are worried about the time taken to do this, keep some back at the next bedding change and use this so that you don't have prolonged contact in the cage.
I think gloves can be a good way to go when it's getting too difficult. If you are repeatedly getting bitten it becomes quite stressful and they will pick up on your stress so you end up in a catch 22.

Scooby may have been just a little surprised when the ladder disappeared, especially if he knows his food is coming and he wants it.
With regards to the hay tube. I'd be surprised if he doesn't like it, our 4 love hay and it keeps them busy every evening. Is it possible to put it in when he's not up and about? or does he pop up every time he hears you open his cage?

I'm so pleased play time is still ok and there hasn't been any similar incidents when he's out with you. It's so nice to be able to interact and enjoy his company that way. Treats are a good way of bringing trust so definitely continue with that.
The only other thing is whether you could lead with a small treat for him before doing anything else in his cage. Just a suggestion as it may not work, or he may end up getting rather a lot of treats! Milk thistle seeds are great for small treats as they are really tiny and they have to de-shell them so they aren't gone in 1 second.

[stellamaris]

Hi Tanzanyte, thanks for the ideas!
Scooby and I have been doing fine. I decided to treat him as if he weren't a "morning person" since that's when we had our fights. Even then, he's happy to climb onto my hand for a treat. Once he's settled in his bed, I clean up and refill the stuff in his topper. He evidently doesn't want to bestir himself enough to protest. :-)
I took out the glass shelf and put a terracotta dish and his sand bath in its place. I can take them in and out with less noise and fuss. And instead of giving him a paper roll twice a day, I wait till floor time so I can sneak it into his bin when he's elsewhere. A couple of times in the evening I've cautiously messed about in his topper, and he's tolerated it.
Floor time is a delight. Many treats, pets, and scritches.

[Markpd]

How's it been going with Scooby?

Oct 21, 2021 8:13:18 GMT -8 tanzanyte said:

3 weeks might be quite quick for a clean out. Especially as it's quite a stressful thing for them.
I do ours every 6-8 weeks, keep 2/3rds of bedding and spend quite a while spot cleaning through the kept bedding (I have the opportunity as they are happy in their play area for the duration so I appreciate this isn't always possible for others).
I clean the sand bath out daily and do spot cleans around their food area when I replace the food and water. My girls are a little more skittish when I do this, but I always stop and keep still if they show any signs of stress.
.....

I can't remember exactly what size cage you have, but IIRC it's much bigger than stellamaris's 15 gallon tank, so their tank would need cleaning more often. What size is your tank tanzanyte?

[stellamaris]

Scooby and I have been doing OK. The glass shelf I removed was quite fiddly; the tile I replaced it with is easier to remove and replace. I give him a treat or something to chew on, then mess with his stuff when he's busy.
I've been putting my treat-filled hand inside his topper in the mornings; he's peeved that I'm in his space, but his greed overrides his anger.
I measured, and he's in a 10 gallon plastic gerbilarium (plus topper), not 15. At night, I have to move his home into the small bathroom so he doesn't keep me awake. I want a bigger tank, but glass is heavy. I went to the local plastic store and told them what I wanted for my gerbil. The guy said, "Well, it'd have to be a very valuable gerbil; the tank you want would cost A LOT!"
So, I'm keeping an eye out for a plastic bin or terrarium. I could probably use a regular plastic bin...
Still cogitating.
It's possible his morning peevishness is caused or exacerbated by watching my hamster free range around the floor near his cage.

[Markpd]

Cogitating? I had to Google that one

Lol, funny that his greed over rides his aggression!

Hmm, yea 10 gallons is too small really, I hope you manage to find something for a decent price.

If you do use a plastic bin(box) for his new cage, be careful that you get one that doesn't have corners or edges he can chew on, otherwise he'll be out in no time!

And yea perspex at least isn't cheap, I recently enquired about having a tank height extension made from Perspex (2 rectangles 42"L x 16.5"W x 6" high, no top or bottom), and the cheapest quote (out of just 3 admittedly) was £125! (cut, but not assembled).

Btw, what is it that he does that keeps you awake? If the only thing was him scratching on the plastic, a glass tank would solve that, then you wouldn't need to move it. Although I'm guessing it's more than 1 thing?

[tanzanyte]

I'm pleased it's going better now. Here's hoping you find a new cage/bin for Scooby. I know my stepdaughter used a plastic box/bin for her hamster so I'll see if she can remember what make it was as I know she spent a while looking for one that didn't have anything chewable.

Unfortunately perspex pricing went up hugely with the pandemic. It doesn't seem to have decreased even though it's not quite so in demand anymore.

I've forgotten what their cage is in volume and am rubbish at working it out Markpd . The size is 40x45x100cm
Didn't you just get a massive tank anyway Mark?

[Markpd]

Length wise yes, but the height was 2" shorter than they claimed (making it 2" shorter than their current tank) and 1.5" narrower than they claimed, making it 3.5" narrower! I can't do anything with the width, but I can the height. Still a PITA though!