Sad post - help

[tams]

We bought my my daughter (14) 2 gerbils from a great breeder. We read everything we could from the forums etc and tried to make sure we did the best we could do for them. They were simply fantastic, happy and sociable. She has had them for 3 weeks and last night they both died in the night. We are devastated! We followed feeding and housing guidance (from forums not pet shop) but don’t know what happened! Yesterday afternoon they were bouncing about as usual. Was it cold weather? We are all so sad.

[barryozzy]

So sorry to hear this!   Especially since you were trying so hard to get everything right! I'll grasp at straws here because no one else has replied yet. I'm not as experienced as some others.

If it didn't get below 40 degrees Fahrenheit and they had plenty of bedding, it was probably not the cold.

Did you put anything new in their cage? Could something have been put near or fallen in so they could get it? Did you notice any injuries?

What made the breeder great? Did they have a good reputation, or did they just seem to be doing things right but could've not had good genes?

[tams]

Thanks so much for taking the time to reply. I’ve been lurking and that was my first post 😭

The temperature probably did drop to below 40 😔, I confess to not knowing what a min temp should be for gerbils. That’s one piece of info that didn’t come up in our research prior to getting them. They had lots of bedding and were curled up together when they died.

We can’t see anything that can have fallen in, the tank is elevated, on top of a table with a wire mesh top. we are going to go through their bedding with a fine tooth comb when we clear it. Bop was black and Beans a PEW so from different family lines.

The breeder has an excellent reputation and prioritises welfare over all else. I spent quite a bit of time looking to find the right person as that definitely came through the forum.

They were the perfect pet and, though only with us for 3 weeks, the whole family were smitten. We can possibly imagine getting more gerbils in the future but that may be unlikely if we can’t pinpoint what went wrong. We are so broken-hearted over those little girls and guilt wracked That we missed something or unwittingly got it wrong.

Do you think it was the cold?

[LilyandDaisy]

I'm so sorry this happened to you.

Gerbils from the same litter can be completely different colours so unless the breeder told you otherwise, I would assume they were siblings. It would be a good idea to inform the breeder what happened it case it was something genetic. Because of recessive genes, two gerbils can unexpectedly produce offspring with genetic defects and that could happen to even an excellent breeder. A good breeder would want to know so that they can find out if any other gerbils from the same litter have died, and possibly not breed those parents again.

It does seem unusual for even a genetic condition to strike both gerbils in the same night though.

The cold is a possibility as under 40F is very low, although generally gerbils are quite resilient to cold, and their nests can hold a lot of warmth. Possibly being younger gerbils they might not have been so hardy.

When I was a child, due to an exacerbation of my mum's asthma and allergies, we ended up keeping our four gerbils in an outside shed for at least one winter. I definitely don't endorse or recommend that (it was a bad idea for so many reasons), but they did survive and grew big winter coats. However they were all fully-grown robust male gerbils rather than young females.

The only other thing that comes to mind right now is carbon monoxide. Carbon monoxide can affect smaller animals before it affects humans.

[betty]

If the gerbils were in your own home during these temperatures (even in an unheated but insulated room) - this shouldn't be the cause - although if they were too ventilated and this low temperature (inside their room) was of extended length, it is possible that it could have affected their situation, but unlikely. If they were in a garage or outhouse this could have been more of an issue though.

Genetic (inherited condition) and genetic (of the genes) are very different though - and I wouldn't have thought the breeder you researched would have knowingly bred gerbils with such serious an heritable health conditions. However, a congenital condition across siblings/multiple births is quite common as this is something that could have happened quite spontaneous during development. I had a litter recently who all had congestive heart failure for some reason - but it (luckily) became obvious before homing.

Most likely for Bop and Beans, as said above, this was caused by an environmental condition either way - as sibling rarely die together and certainly not while sleeping. And, although this is immensely sad for you and your gerbils - the room they were in could have Carbon Monoxide leaking at a low level or other low-level fumes from chemicals/paints etc., so you might want to check this out for your own peace of mind.

If you wanted to find out what it was (possibly) do you know of anything at all that was brought from a store or collected from 'the wild' that was used or stored in that same room (or sprayed outside the door or window) since you homed them (but most likely in the day of two before). This lit of things could maybe help narrow it down?

[Markpd]

I've also struggled to find out what the minimum temperature should be for Gerbils, but like lilyanddaisy said, it depends on how much nesting they have. I think the only way to find out, would be to see what Gerbils regulate their nest temperature to (when they remove/add nesting), but that would require a sensor in their nest, which they would likely chew, or dig out! (something I am pondering though).
Anyway, that's not much help to you, just thought I'd mention it's not just you struggling to find that answer.
Sorry to hear about the loss of your babies

Btw, any gas fires/boilers burning ok? Because if CO is being produced/leaking into your house, that's really dangerous to people too!
IIRC early signs are tiredness, headaches and red faced, but please Google CO poisoning to confirm I've remembered correctly! 

betty , did you mean CO2? [edit, now corrected]. I only ask because lilyanddaisy mentioned Carbon monoxide (CO).
I would've thought it would need quite a lot of CO2 to be a problem? But I'm 1/2 guessing TBH!

[catnut]

soo sorry you lost these girls soo soon after getting them, hope you can figure out what may have gone wrong but sometimes we never find the reason. Gas companies will come for no cost to check for leaks, sometimes the fire dept. as well, i had the gas co. come (Canada) and thankfully i did as we did have a leak of our hot water tank and had to turn it off and get a new one, luckily none of us had symptoms or the pets.

[tams]

Thank you everyone for your posts.

We don’t have any gas appliances anywhere near that room so we don’t think carbon monoxide was an issue. No chemicals used in the area at all so that’s unlikely too.

I had originally put in some compostible planter pots /seed pots for them to chew which we think they had only started to chew on a few days before they died. I have been hunting for the ‘ingredients’ list for them but can’t find one. Perhaps it was those 😭

Everything else in the tank is marketed for gerbils.

Their tank was quite near a window which whilst not open was perhaps a little draughty?

We are going to re-visit getting more pets after Christmas but currently my daughter feels too scared about getting more gerbils, terrified that she just isn’t up to keeping them alive. I’m sure this will change a little over the coming weeks when it isn’t so raw. She looked after them so very well in all the ways we knew to and they loved playing with, and all over, her.

I think we’re also relieved that everyone has been so kind, we’ve been in touch with the breeder too, just lots of sympathy and no accusation from anyone other than ourselves. Thank you all.

[betty]

This really is a set of very rare and strange circumstances - of course noone is to blame and I am glad you felt welcome and listened to here.

Virtually all compostable pots are made with untreated plant fibres so that they don't harm the environment on their way out - I can't imagine they would have been the cause unless they were stored incorrectly by the store or were infused with plant feed chemicals. You must be wracking your brain on what it was, but perhaps we will never actually know - these are all just guesses.


Just as an aside for everyone reading though - Carbon Monoxide is produced by the burning of all heating fuels, not just from gas appliances.

It is only when they are used in a confined or unvenilated space that they are the most risky - so generators, BBQs, stoves, running cars, and fuel burners are all included and should only be used out of doors.

Additionally, and unfortunately, you even don't need to have gas/fuel appliances in your own home to get a dangerous CO build up. It can also creep in through walls and floors from other homes, directly from garages, waft in through windows and leak out of underground pipes even - so please everyone - always buy and install at least one permanent CO alarm/detector in your lounge or bedroom - more if required.

Stay safe.

[Markpd]

Just to expand on the comment about CO from cars, this is primarily from petrol engines, and although catalytic convertors (fitted to all petrol cars in the UK from '93, in the US long before that!) convert CO to CO2, that only works once the 'cat' is warmed up (can take several minutes or so), and assuming it or the engine isn't faulty. Oh of course diesels produce other fumes that you wouldn't want in the house! (and also have cats that need warming up).

On another point, I certainly don't mean this in an accusatory way, just trying to help get to the bottom of the cause so it doesn't happen again, or the worry that it could, but it's already been mentioned that room temp went below 40F (4.4 C) for them, isn't that the likely cause?
I know 'information' out there is very fuzzy on what the minimum temperature for them should be, which if the above is correct, the fuzzy info is the route cause.

[tams]

Thanks, from everything we’ve read and considered we too think the the most likely cause may have been the cold as mentioned.

We now have put a thermometer in that room which can track temp highs and lows just to monitor it for our own understanding. IF we can bring ourselves to have more gerbils, will also move the tank and have a heater with a thermostat in the room just to avoid any lows from cold snaps.

Currently my daughter can’t ever imagine getting over this well enough to have more 😔.

[LilyandDaisy]

I have a reptile heating mat at one corner of my tank, so they always have a warm corner to retreat to if they want. I think that's probably more energy-efficient than heaters.

[Markpd]

Out of interest lilyanddaisy, how many watts does the heater mat draw?

tams Sorry to hear about your daughter being so upset about it all , I hope she (and you all) can get over it enough at some point to have these adorable creatures again.

On a separate note, we are in the process here of updating the various FAQs. Until me, betty and pipsqueak became mods 1 month ago, their had only been 1 occasionally active admin around here, and it wasn't possible to update pinned information threads. Anyway, I see in our FAQs > General care, that their is at least a few tips on how to keep them cool, but nothing about keeping them warm enough, which is quite an oversight! [edit, actually there is a recommendation, but it's somewhat hidden at the bottom of the Common Gerbil Ailments FAQ, it says "Keep temperatures in the gerbils area well above freezing, and ideally above 10°C (50°F). When it is cold out, give the gerbils plenty of nesting material to keep warmth in."]

I will add that to our to do list, and post an open thread about it here in the near future for ideas.

[LilyandDaisy]

I think it's 16W Markpd.

[Markpd]

Yea that's far less power than a regular room heater!