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Post by LilyandDaisy on Dec 13, 2021 5:16:47 GMT -8
I remembered there was this article by the RVC which showed (in graphic detail - view with caution) the dangers of kapok and fluffy bedding in case you wanted some evidence for the FAQ. It's on page 5. Also there's this article/letter which talks about mouse pups being injured by cotton bedding. |
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Post by Markpd on Dec 13, 2021 12:34:43 GMT -8
I've moved the balls to the avoid section, and added all the negative points mentioned here, I think!  More to come.... I have mesh wheels and they have never injured themselves on it. I would like to have solid wheels, so I wouldn't have to worry about even the chance of an injury. But I tried plastic once and they were quickly destroyed. I can't find any solid metal ones for sale in the US, and it seems amazingly expensive to have things shipped overseas  Though I just discovered some instructions for making one from a pie tin, so I may actually try doing that If you have success with that, perhaps you could give us a link to it? We could add it to the DIY section, or if you want to improve on the DIY then we can post it as yours  . |
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Post by betty on Dec 16, 2021 11:21:05 GMT -8
As for other things you don't need - to pad the section out a bit - shall we put the salt wheels in there? Am I right in thinking that these were decided against having but were still for sale in shops? I can't remember what was decided about the mineral wheels/stones and the cuttlebone. Were they too just extras really - but not needed if the diet was complete and/over varied?
Another thing they don't need that was always traditionally sold for them was the vitamins in the water? Again - I think this was decided as unessesary for gerbils due to their drinking habits more than anything wasn't it.
We mention a link to fluffy bedding - but would it be worth putting 'sawdust' and other scented/odor control substrates in here - only a brief note - as if someone new really is skimming through this new post as a first read - they may not have found these things out already - so a simple sentence can at least open up something for them to look into.
Love seeing things updated - they now better reflect what members are saying in response to current threads.
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Post by Markpd on Dec 16, 2021 13:28:14 GMT -8
betty - Salt wheels? Good point about sawdust and scented substrates, I'll add that in at a later point (unless you want to?).
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Post by Markpd on Dec 18, 2021 4:50:03 GMT -8
I remembered there was this article by the RVC which showed (in graphic detail - view with caution) the dangers of kapok and fluffy bedding in case you wanted some evidence for the FAQ. It's on page 5. Also there's this article/letter which talks about mouse pups being injured by cotton bedding. Sorry LilyandDaisy, somehow I missed this post!  I'll just copy that quote into the guide, thanks for that
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Btw I've added wheel size advise to the guide.
As for what size wheel to get, we recommend at least an 11"/28cm wheel. Gerbils have long tails, and wheels much smaller than this will cause them to have to lift their tail more so than they naturally would, this at least wouldn't be comfortable for them (and so they might limit their time on the wheel), and possibly in more extreme cases cause back problems.
That ok?
Next on the list to add to avoid, sawdust and scented bedding.....
Ok, so I've also added this :-
4) SawDUST. This is a very unhealthy substrate/bedding for gerbils (and any rodent) due to the small size of the dust which can easily cause respiratory infections (RIs)(don't confuse sawdust with wood shavings, the latter of which is much bigger than sawdust and can be ok). Additionally some woods, as substrate, in themselves are bad for gerbils. Particularly many pine woods in the USA (less so in the UK and Europe). For very detailed information on that check out this excellent article by Fivelittleham's website on softwood substrate.
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Scented bedding still to be added, can I have some more info on that btw?
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Post by Markpd on Dec 23, 2021 18:05:07 GMT -8
*cough* |
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Post by LilyandDaisy on Dec 23, 2021 18:52:56 GMT -8
Sorry I think I missed your edit before.
The wheel advice looks good.
The pine wood shavings issue is complex and while there are people who are certain they're completely safe, and others who are certain they are not safe, in my opinion the scientific evidence doesn't conclusively prove either position. I believe the thing about US pine being different to UK pine may be speculation but I'd have to look into it. The issue is honestly deserving of a whole article of its own just discussing the varying views and aspects for the curious. I think I started an article on pine shavings once for another project so if you wanted I could dust off my old research and produce something?
As for sawdust, I would just add a clarification that some people say sawdust when they mean wood shavings, but here we are talking about wood dust.
The reasons not to use scented bedding are:
- It's completely unnecessary as well-kept gerbils should not smell bad.
- It's unpleasant for gerbils, which have a very sensitive sense of smell, to be constantly surrounded by a strong odour
- It could mask a gerbil's own scent which may cause stress and excessive scent-marking. It could even lead to a declan if gerbils are unable to recognise their tankmates due to an overpowering odour of scented bedding.
- In some cases it could cause respiratory irritation or breathing difficulties (if the scent comes from essential oils)
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Post by Markpd on Dec 24, 2021 7:03:09 GMT -8
No probs , thought I'd edited soon enough after, I guess not soon enough .
Re discussion about different pines (and other woods) in different parts of the world, that's why I linked the article by fivelittlehams regarding it (a link you originally gave me, as mentioned in my previous post ). That is a very detailed article and does reference some studies too, if you think you think you can add to that, then go for it and create your own article (I just wanted to re-mention the fivelittlehams article first, so that you didn't end up feeling like you'd just produced a clone of it). As for sawdust, I would just add a clarification that some people say sawdust when they mean wood shavings, but here we are talking about wood dustThat's already in there And thanks for the scented bedding points , I'll add that in. *********************************************************************** Anyone else want to add something in? Or feel like something's missing from that guide? |
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Post by Markpd on Dec 24, 2021 12:19:24 GMT -8
Should scented bedding be in the 'things you don't need' list or the 'avoid' list?
I'm thinking the latter.
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Post by LilyandDaisy on Dec 24, 2021 12:21:19 GMT -8
Should scented bedding be in the 'things you don't need' list or the 'avoid' list? I'm thinking the latter. I would agree that they're a thing to "avoid". |
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Post by Markpd on Dec 24, 2021 12:47:49 GMT -8
Added that in, thanks for that . betty anymore on the salted wheels? (whatever they are? ). |
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Post by barryozzy on Dec 24, 2021 15:11:51 GMT -8
Salt wheels:  I have one, but they've never cared about it. They don't lick it at all, it's just getting slowly smaller when I occasionally rinse nastiness off. They did enjoy some mineral chew things I once had, but I don't remember what they were made of and I can't find them at the pet store anymore. |
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Post by Markpd on Dec 24, 2021 15:18:06 GMT -8
Oh, salt licks, right, got ya, thanks |
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Post by Markpd on Dec 28, 2021 11:05:50 GMT -8
I just stumbled across a thread from earlier this year with some of us in it, and something that was mentioned (I've highlighted it) which isn't in the "Gerbil Goodies: What the Pet Store Won't Tell You" guide atm, certainly worth adding! I think split setups like that probably don't cause declans as such, much like big tanks don't cause declans, but if your gerbils are having issues and on the edge of a declan, a divided or split setup might just make it easier for them to form separate territories. If you do want that kind of tank setup, you can limit the risks by making each side very accessible - so keep the divider as low as possible and make sure they can just jump over it rather than going through a single small hole or running up a single narrow bendy bridge as the second photo linked shows. It just makes it too easy for one gerbil to trap another on a path. Just a word of caution about the bendy bridges. When they're used upright as a divider there are vertical gaps between the sticks and there are several cases of rodents' limbs becoming trapped in these gaps, leading to injury and even amputation. In fact while typing this comment I got distracted and checked another forum to find a new post where someone's hamster had injured their leg on one of these dividers. I would recommend using something like a solid piece of wood for a divider instead. Btw lilyanddaisy, I don't suppose you still know/have a link to that thread? |
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Post by Markpd on Jan 6, 2022 12:33:31 GMT -8
I started this conversation elsewhere, but I wondered if anyone else had to something to add to this? Looking at adding this to an FAQ. Great to hear  That reminds me, re increasing their cage size in stages, how do you gauge when to give them more space? Or do you just do it after a certain amount of time's passed? I'm thinking perhaps we should add guidance like that into 1 of the FAQs (not sure which atm, lol). Perhaps you'd like to reply in the forum feedback thread? This is actually my first full split tank (I started another a few years ago but didn't go through with it) but I can answer from what I've read and from more general observations of gerbil behaviour. Most of what I've read says to keep them in the tank you did the split in for the first week at least. After that, you can consider moving them up a size if they seem well-bonded. Well-bonded gerbils are calm in each others' presence. They generally appear at ease around each other, whereas with a pair that's not doing so well, it seems like every little interaction is another power struggle. It's hard to describe, but a pair that's not doing well, generally doesn't seem happy or comfortable in each other's presence. Well-bonded gerbils will be sleeping in the same nest. I would say if gerbils aren't sharing a nest, the split hasn't been successful and moving them to a bigger tank definitely is not something you should be thinking about. Eating side-by-side, relaxed grooming, touching noses are good signs that can indicate happy gerbils. With relaxed grooming, the gerbils look relaxed and grooming will be over the whole body including the head, back and even tummy (the tummy is a very vulnerable area, if a gerbil willingly allows another to groom it there, I think it's a very good sign). There is also tense grooming where one gerbil (the dominant one or one that wants to be dominant) pins the other down and quite aggressively grooms the head and face. This isn't exactly a good thing, although it can happen sometimes even in a pair that's doing fine. If you see it a lot in a newly introduced pair I would think you need to wait before giving them more space though. I'm unsure whether with a newly introduced pair showing negative signs such as general tension, not sharing a nest, tense grooming etc, you would just leave them to sort it out, or put the divider back in and go back to swapping sides? I haven't ever had the situation so I'm not sure what the answer would be there, but it definitely wouldn't be to move them to a bigger tank. As long as the gerbils continue to seem well-bonded, I think you can move them up a tank size every couple of weeks until you reach your final intended enclosure. Obviously you need to leave long enough between each move for them to settle in and see how they react. It's not just about the tank size either. Adding lots of new bedding and toys all at once could be an issue. In the first couple of weeks after removing the divider, you should add new things one at a time. After that, maybe you can be a bit freer but basically just don't go over the top and take them from a barely furnished split tank to an elaborate new setup. Also move over most of the old bedding whenever you move them to a new tank. You need to preserve their scent with every move. It's ideal to increase tank size in moderate increments of 30-40cm at a time, but not everyone has tanks of assorted sizes available so some people might need to go straight from a 60cm split tank to a 120cm main tank. If I were in that situation, and I didn't want to make a tank divider, what I would do is move them to the bigger tank, but change nothing else. Move over the old bedding and keep the new to a minimum, which might mean the bedding is quite shallow to begin with but you can build it up after a few days. Move over the old toys and accessories but don't add any new for a few days, and then only one at a time. If there is an excessive size difference (say, going from 60cm split tank to a 160cm detolf), I'd personally feel more comfortable using a tank divider to introduce the space more gradually. |
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