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Post by betty on Feb 19, 2022 5:33:20 GMT -8
Cool - and welcome to the world of gerbils!
I don't have time just now to read and reply in full - but I will do later today hopefully as genetics is very interesting to work out and learn more about...
One thing I will say though for starters is that gerbil breeding also means you usually end up multiplying enclosures too - so it you don't have room to expand your enclosures by 4+ times - you might want to hold off.
There are ways of doing it with less - but generally - the parents can't go back together after the litters, and so need a pup each to retire with - so you are alreay on double. Then the remaining pups if not homed fast enough or off the 'wrong' gender might need a tank each while waiting with you (you can only really leave them all with their (same sex) parents for the first 10 weeks or so before they need to pair off and settle in their new clans (taking them out later to home can sometimes upset the balance too much)).
Also, they can't go back with any old friends - so if you originally had two females together before breeding - they need to stay apart permanently too. You can try to split together a pup from the one female in with the other to retire with but breeding in a trio doesn't always have very good results for the pups.
So just on this you could already be up to between 4 and 6 enclosures after the one double breeding.
Speak soon...
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Post by barryozzy on Feb 19, 2022 6:51:19 GMT -8
As far as I know, outcrossing is with an unrelated pair and is best for health but it is harder to get the best color if you don't know the genes of both. Line breeding is continuing to pair your very best one with their offspring, not as good for health but better for color. Inbreeding is pairing siblings, very not good for health but could get mutation for new colors faster.
You should try not to touch the babies before a week old because they have no fur and will be very delicate. After a week you can pick them up to tell the gender and start handling them. Careful because when they are small they will just wiggle around and try to fall off your hands. Even when their eyes are open they will sometimes just shoot off.
Like Betty said, make sure you have a lot of cages. iirc, litters are usually 4-6 pups but you can still have up to 9.
Also make sure there is actually demand for gerbils or you will be stuck with a whole load of them. I accidentally bred mine and had one litter of 7 and one of 6. I still have 8 because I can't find anyone else who wants gerbils or who wouldn't keep them in a little plastic cage, and I don't have time to play with them all or take them out like I would want to.
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Post by betty on Feb 20, 2022 7:47:27 GMT -8
"So i'm not a very experienced gerbil owner ... but i'm exploring the idea ... to breed different colours and to provide an ethical source for people to adopt their gerbils from..." Breeding for colour is a great brain puzzle - you need to understand how the genetics calculations work for starters and then understand a bit about how to record these and how you can 'bring them out' in your pups. Breeding for colour however, is in a battle with true breeding for health and structure as of course they are two opposing things. You can't breed two just because they are the colours you want - without potentially tunring a blind eye to their health/inter-relatedness/morphology. This is why line breeding occurs frequently in smaller lines as there isn't enough stock to consider both health and colour at the same time with only a few gerbils. It isn't that is can't be done - it just means you have a lot of overcorrecting to do to keep both - and it isn't always possible. "I realized that the 3rd generation would create babies that are cousins (i think or something like that). i'm not sure if continually picking two breeding pairs from these 2 family lines would create inbreeding problems down the line ... [and] i'm just not sure how to prevent inbreeding and what level of inbreeding is considered normal (if any)" As said above - you need more than 2 lines of gerbils to establish a breeding program that isn't completely inbreed over generations. Some people have found that inbreeding for too long can reduce litter numbers and also drop essential genes for various colours. So if you are always having a line of pink-eyed gerbils - you wiill have 'lost' the dark-eyed gene there and so will never be able to produce those gerbil colours that only come with dark eyes (unless you add a new dark-eyed gerbil back into the line. Obviously adding a dark-eye back in to get 'Black' gerbils say, will reduce the number of the colour pups you get that have red eyes, so you can end up with less of one colour in each pairing - but more colours per pairing."...if i can't pick out breeding pairs from these two families after every generation then i would just pick one or two to pair with opposite sex gerbils from other sources, but then where would i get the new gerbils from? there aren't really any breeders in my area so the only option is the pet store which isn't the best and even then, most pet stores here don't even carry gerbils anymore. :(" If you can keep lines clear of each other this will always leave you with generations down the line that can be back-crossed together - or buy in the odd single every so often that you know isn't related. I find giving each line a certain colour and then pairing the colours up helps to show who came from where. Having only a handful of breeding gerbils though can certainly limit your choices. Potentially though having 2 distinct lines only to start (so two pairs of unrelated gerbils (A+B and C+D) you can breed those pairs a few times, and then buy in another unrelated pair (X and Y) a year down the line, and then put one with the A+B line and one with the B+C line for a few more litters - like a plait I suppose. Gradually seperate out your A+B+X from just the A+B, and then the C+D+Y from your C+D and you have 4 lines now that aren't tightly related.
This is where it would be handy to have picked your starter gerbils with the right genes for the colours you want in the first place could really help out. What colours were you hoping to produce overall?"... what would you say is the success rate with introducing breeding pairs? i may have 1 or 2 pairs breeding at the same time in separate enclosures. i would leave the males in to take care of the first litters, and then take them out after the second (or third?) litter. i read that the mom should have a rest after two litters in which case i would remove the male once the second litter is born. i read that keeping a daughter from the first litter in to take care of the second litter is ideal, but would i be able to keep the entire first litter in with both the mother and her second litter? since the female will most likely get pregnant again right away after the first litter is born and the gestation period is about 3-4 weeks, the first litter would be going to their homes by the time the second litter is about 4 weeks old." Pairing couples in a split is relatively easy - you just do it like a normal split intro for a few days or a week etc and then wait for her to have a heat cycle and usually the bond is complete. Leave males in for the first 3-4 weeks of the first litter if you are having the usual two litters. Usually the males and excess females from the first litter can come out and go with dad nearer the 5 week mark (or a touch earlier if mum get annoyed with them when the new litter comes).
Often the second litter is delayed anyway so this helps. Keeping more females with mum is best if you are looking to keep a daughter for pairing off herself at a later date as (if they are all the same colour) you won't know which one will be best to continue the line at a very young age, But you certainly want to pair off the females going for sale before the 10 week mark so that they can start to become a stable clan at yours before you home them to new people.
I'll come back for the rest after lunch... |
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