pea
member
I get a cheese and onion one, and a salt and vinegar one, and I eat them in the same go
Posts: 34
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Post by pea on Mar 23, 2022 2:21:51 GMT -8
Hello, I am new here and may be getting gerbils soon. I wanted to ask about feeding them as there's not much of a choice of good food mixes. How and where do you find ingredients? What about working out percentages for fat and protein? How can you use a commercial mix as a base? Help me please! Thank you in advance Scarlett😊
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pea
member
I get a cheese and onion one, and a salt and vinegar one, and I eat them in the same go
Posts: 34
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Post by pea on Mar 23, 2022 3:00:37 GMT -8
I was also wondering about the pets corner great and small mix? Is it good? It looks pretty nice but the percentages are like this: Protein: 17.1 I think it's a little too high? Fibre:4.7 (I read that they need 11-15) Fat (well it says oil, that's the same thing right?): 6 which is good I think?
Could I use this as a base and how would I calculate the fat, protein and fibre? How do you lower protein? And raise fibre? Thanks in advance 😊
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Post by LilyandDaisy on Mar 23, 2022 11:50:19 GMT -8
Hello, Making your own mix is certainly possible but it's a big undertaking, especially for a newcomer to gerbils. Using a commercial mix as a base can be an easier option to begin with. This means to use a commercial mix as the bulk of the diet but mix in other ingredients for extra variety and enrichment or to alter the nutritional composition. When you're working with multiple ingredients, calculating the percentages of fat, protein etc can be complicated. I have created a database and calculator for just this purpose. Read (or at least skim) the notes before using it, especially the last two chapters on "limitations and challenges". The database will do all the maths for you but the nutritional notes are really just a starting point for your own research. There is quite a lot of flexibility with the percentages of fat, protein and fibre. You will find various recommendations online but they're just estimates so there's no need to aim for them exactly. Young gerbils (under 3 months) seem to grow best on at least 16-17% protein ( source). Adult gerbils can presumably have less and it's often assumed that elderly gerbils should have less protein to put less strain on their kidneys. Oil does mean the same thing as fat in this context. 6% is fine but if you mix your own food you will usually end up with higher fat levels, which is also fine. My homemade mix has 11% fat. One of my gerbils is actually quite prone to weight gain but she's stable on 11% fat as long as she doesn't get too many treats. Fibre isn't a nutrient as such so gerbils won't get malnutrition from it being slightly low but it is probably beneficial. You can give your gerbils hay and leafy vegetables to boost their fibre intake if you wish (they may or may not eat the hay but at least it will be available to them). The Pet's Corner mix looks ok from a nutritional standpoint and it has some variety, which is good. It's a kind of "middle of the range" diet - better than the pelleted diets such as Science Selective or Oxbow which are quite boring for gerbils to eat. It doesn't contain many of the smaller seeds which gerbils enjoy though, such as millet, flax seeds and so on. If you were looking for other options, Bunny Gerbil is good. I recommend it a lot on here because it is really nice and my gerbils have always liked it. It has a good variety of small seeds. I get most of my ingredients from Rat Rations and a few from various other sources (I just google the ingredient I'm looking for and pick a website that looks reputable). I hope this helps. I know it's a lot of information to take in but feel free to ask as many questions as you want.
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pea
member
I get a cheese and onion one, and a salt and vinegar one, and I eat them in the same go
Posts: 34
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Post by pea on Mar 23, 2022 14:10:37 GMT -8
Thank you so much🥰 yes, I thought exactly the same thing about the pets corner food How would you calculate percentages with using commercial mix as a base? I'm 13 and maths has never been my strong point😅 so it's quite tricky I don't have any gerbils yet so I am glad to have time to research
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pea
member
I get a cheese and onion one, and a salt and vinegar one, and I eat them in the same go
Posts: 34
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Post by pea on Mar 23, 2022 14:13:24 GMT -8
Thank you so much🥰 yes, I thought exactly the same thing about the pets corner food How would you calculate percentages with using commercial mix as a base? I'm 13 and maths has never been my strong point😅 so it's quite tricky I don't have any gerbils yet so I am glad to have time to research Ooh bunny gerbil looks really good
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Post by LilyandDaisy on Mar 23, 2022 14:47:26 GMT -8
There is a way to calculate the percentages manually but it's a bit long:
Say, for example I wanted to make a mix containing 300g Pets Corner mix and 50g hulled barley.
First I need to find the percentage of protein (i.e protein per 100g) in both of these foods. Pets Corner has 17.1% protein and hulled barley has 12.5% protein.
Now I need to find out how much protein is in the quantities of each food I am using. To find a percentage of a given number, divide the percentage by 100 and then multiply that by the given number. So 300 x 0.171 is 51.3. This means that 300g of Pets Corner mix contains 51.3g of protein. In the same way I can work out that 50g hulled barley contains 6.25g of protein.
Now add together 51.3g and 6.25g to get 57.55g. Now I know that a mixture of 300g Pets Corner and 50g hulled barley will contain 57.55g of protein. Now I need to find what that is as a percentage. To do that, divide 57.55 by 350g (the total weight of the mix) and multiply that by 100. 57.55/350 = 0.1644. 0.1644 x 100 = 16.44. Now I know that my mixture will have 16.44% protein.
Then do the same for fat and fibre.
That's the complicated manual way, or you can use the database I linked which makes it all very easy. Have a look at the screenshots in the linked post to find out how to plug the ingredients into the mixer and get your results.
When you're using commercial mixes it can skew a lot of the micronutrients (the vitamins, minerals, fatty acids and amino acids, basically everything apart the things in the red section) so that they look much lower than they will be in reality. But if you're using a commercial mix as the majority of your gerbil's diet you don't really need to worry about those figures.
I've just added Bunny and the Pets Corner mix to the current live version of the database. Let me know if you are looking at any other foods and I can add those too.
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pea
member
I get a cheese and onion one, and a salt and vinegar one, and I eat them in the same go
Posts: 34
|
Post by pea on Mar 24, 2022 2:12:10 GMT -8
There is a way to calculate the percentages manually but it's a bit long: Say, for example I wanted to make a mix containing 300g Pets Corner mix and 50g hulled barley. First I need to find the percentage of protein (i.e protein per 100g) in both of these foods. Pets Corner has 17.1% protein and hulled barley has 12.5% protein. Now I need to find out how much protein is in the quantities of each food I am using. To find a percentage of a given number, divide the percentage by 100 and then multiply that by the given number. So 300 x 0.171 is 51.3. This means that 300g of Pets Corner mix contains 51.3g of protein. In the same way I can work out that 50g hulled barley contains 6.25g of protein. Now add together 51.3g and 6.25g to get 57.55g. Now I know that a mixture of 300g Pets Corner and 50g hulled barley will contain 57.55g of protein. Now I need to find what that is as a percentage. To do that, divide 57.55 by 350g (the total weight of the mix) and multiply that by 100. 57.55/350 = 0.1644. 0.1644 x 100 = 16.44. Now I know that my mixture will have 16.44% protein. Then do the same for fat and fibre. That's the complicated manual way, or you can use the database I linked which makes it all very easy. Have a look at the screenshots in the linked post to find out how to plug the ingredients into the mixer and get your results. When you're using commercial mixes it can skew a lot of the micronutrients (the vitamins, minerals, fatty acids and amino acids, basically everything apart the things in the red section) so that they look much lower than they will be in reality. But if you're using a commercial mix as the majority of your gerbil's diet you don't really need to worry about those figures. I've just added Bunny and the Pets Corner mix to the current live version of the database. Let me know if you are looking at any other foods and I can add those too. Thank you so much! I think I'll start from scratch looking at the ingredients I can easily find I'm not sure how to enter the ingredients into the calculator?
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pea
member
I get a cheese and onion one, and a salt and vinegar one, and I eat them in the same go
Posts: 34
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Post by pea on Mar 24, 2022 3:53:44 GMT -8
There is a way to calculate the percentages manually but it's a bit long: Say, for example I wanted to make a mix containing 300g Pets Corner mix and 50g hulled barley. First I need to find the percentage of protein (i.e protein per 100g) in both of these foods. Pets Corner has 17.1% protein and hulled barley has 12.5% protein. Now I need to find out how much protein is in the quantities of each food I am using. To find a percentage of a given number, divide the percentage by 100 and then multiply that by the given number. So 300 x 0.171 is 51.3. This means that 300g of Pets Corner mix contains 51.3g of protein. In the same way I can work out that 50g hulled barley contains 6.25g of protein. Now add together 51.3g and 6.25g to get 57.55g. Now I know that a mixture of 300g Pets Corner and 50g hulled barley will contain 57.55g of protein. Now I need to find what that is as a percentage. To do that, divide 57.55 by 350g (the total weight of the mix) and multiply that by 100. 57.55/350 = 0.1644. 0.1644 x 100 = 16.44. Now I know that my mixture will have 16.44% protein. Then do the same for fat and fibre. That's the complicated manual way, or you can use the database I linked which makes it all very easy. Have a look at the screenshots in the linked post to find out how to plug the ingredients into the mixer and get your results. When you're using commercial mixes it can skew a lot of the micronutrients (the vitamins, minerals, fatty acids and amino acids, basically everything apart the things in the red section) so that they look much lower than they will be in reality. But if you're using a commercial mix as the majority of your gerbil's diet you don't really need to worry about those figures. I've just added Bunny and the Pets Corner mix to the current live version of the database. Let me know if you are looking at any other foods and I can add those too. With ratrations, do you have to pay for postage and if so how much is it? Also do you need to count herbs and flowers and things like that and where do you get them? Also are farina seeds the same as flour seeds (or is that flower seeds?)
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Post by LilyandDaisy on Mar 24, 2022 14:39:51 GMT -8
Making your own mix from scratch is certainly ambitious but I'll try to answer all your questions as best I can To use the calculator, first look at the Ingredients tab and find the name of the ingredient you want to use. Then find the number in the No. column. Every ingredient has its own number. Then go to the Mixer tab and enter that number in the No. column there. The database will then use this number to look up the name of the ingredient you are referencing and it will appear in the next cell. Farinaceous seeds are the same thing as flour seeds. That just means seeds that are higher in carbohydrate and lower in fat. Grains are a type of farinaceous seed. The other type of seed is oil seeds or fatty seeds. These are higher in fat and lower in carbohydrate. They also tend to be higher in protein. The reason I've divided these two types of seeds into different categories in the database is because they are both very important to have in your food mix - you don't want to have all flour seeds or all oil seeds - and it's best to have a particular ratio of flour seeds/grains to oil seeds. Usually this ratio is somewhere between 60:40 and 80:20. I find the easiest way to start designing a new mix is to first decide what ratio of flour to oil seeds you want. For young, growing gerbils 60:40 is a good place to start. Then choose which flour seeds and which oil seeds you want to use. So if you have decided you want a 60:40 ratio, you might then choose 6 different grains or flour seeds to use, and add 10g of each one to the Mixer, to add up to 60g. Or you could have more of some and less of others, as long as it still adds up to 60g. Then you might choose 10 different oil seeds and add 4g of each one to the Mixer, to add up to 40g. Then you add the other ingredients such as insects, dried vegetables etc. This way is much easier than just putting ingredients randomly into the calculator. Personally I don't tend to use dried herbs and flowers as I find my gerbils aren't very interested in them for the most part. They much prefer fresh herbs and flowers. You don't have to include them in your calculations if you don't want to as they won't alter it by much (and they certainly won't alter it for the worse). I would recommend feeding some leafy vegetables or herbs, fresh or dried, for the Vitamin K, which seeds, insects etc contain very little of. It's actually doubtful whether rodents need Vitamin K in their diet at all because they can manufacture it in their guts but to be on the safe, feed some leafy vegetables alongside your homemade diet. Rat Rations does charge postage and it's relatively high (a minimum of around £5). They also have a good selection of herbs and flowers.
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pea
member
I get a cheese and onion one, and a salt and vinegar one, and I eat them in the same go
Posts: 34
|
Post by pea on Mar 24, 2022 15:29:52 GMT -8
Making your own mix from scratch is certainly ambitious but I'll try to answer all your questions as best I can To use the calculator, first look at the Ingredients tab and find the name of the ingredient you want to use. Then find the number in the No. column. Every ingredient has its own number. Then go to the Mixer tab and enter that number in the No. column there. The database will then use this number to look up the name of the ingredient you are referencing and it will appear in the next cell. Farinaceous seeds are the same thing as flour seeds. That just means seeds that are higher in carbohydrate and lower in fat. Grains are a type of farinaceous seed. The other type of seed is oil seeds or fatty seeds. These are higher in fat and lower in carbohydrate. They also tend to be higher in protein. The reason I've divided these two types of seeds into different categories in the database is because they are both very important to have in your food mix - you don't want to have all flour seeds or all oil seeds - and it's best to have a particular ratio of flour seeds/grains to oil seeds. Usually this ratio is somewhere between 60:40 and 80:20. I find the easiest way to start designing a new mix is to first decide what ratio of flour to oil seeds you want. For young, growing gerbils 60:40 is a good place to start. Then choose which flour seeds and which oil seeds you want to use. So if you have decided you want a 60:40 ratio, you might then choose 6 different grains or flour seeds to use, and add 10g of each one to the Mixer, to add up to 60g. Or you could have more of some and less of others, as long as it still adds up to 60g. Then you might choose 10 different oil seeds and add 4g of each one to the Mixer, to add up to 40g. Then you add the other ingredients such as insects, dried vegetables etc. This way is much easier than just putting ingredients randomly into the calculator. Personally I don't tend to use dried herbs and flowers as I find my gerbils aren't very interested in them for the most part. They much prefer fresh herbs and flowers. You don't have to include them in your calculations if you don't want to as they won't alter it by much (and they certainly won't alter it for the worse). I would recommend feeding some leafy vegetables or herbs, fresh or dried, for the Vitamin K, which seeds, insects etc contain very little of. It's actually doubtful whether rodents need Vitamin K in their diet at all because they can manufacture it in their guts but to be on the safe, feed some leafy vegetables alongside your homemade diet. Rat Rations does charge postage and it's relatively high (a minimum of around £5). They also have a good selection of herbs and flowers. This was so helpful, I feel so much better. Making a food mix seemed so daunting at first:) thank you
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pea
member
I get a cheese and onion one, and a salt and vinegar one, and I eat them in the same go
Posts: 34
|
Post by pea on Mar 24, 2022 16:03:51 GMT -8
Making your own mix from scratch is certainly ambitious but I'll try to answer all your questions as best I can To use the calculator, first look at the Ingredients tab and find the name of the ingredient you want to use. Then find the number in the No. column. Every ingredient has its own number. Then go to the Mixer tab and enter that number in the No. column there. The database will then use this number to look up the name of the ingredient you are referencing and it will appear in the next cell. Farinaceous seeds are the same thing as flour seeds. That just means seeds that are higher in carbohydrate and lower in fat. Grains are a type of farinaceous seed. The other type of seed is oil seeds or fatty seeds. These are higher in fat and lower in carbohydrate. They also tend to be higher in protein. The reason I've divided these two types of seeds into different categories in the database is because they are both very important to have in your food mix - you don't want to have all flour seeds or all oil seeds - and it's best to have a particular ratio of flour seeds/grains to oil seeds. Usually this ratio is somewhere between 60:40 and 80:20. I find the easiest way to start designing a new mix is to first decide what ratio of flour to oil seeds you want. For young, growing gerbils 60:40 is a good place to start. Then choose which flour seeds and which oil seeds you want to use. So if you have decided you want a 60:40 ratio, you might then choose 6 different grains or flour seeds to use, and add 10g of each one to the Mixer, to add up to 60g. Or you could have more of some and less of others, as long as it still adds up to 60g. Then you might choose 10 different oil seeds and add 4g of each one to the Mixer, to add up to 40g. Then you add the other ingredients such as insects, dried vegetables etc. This way is much easier than just putting ingredients randomly into the calculator. Personally I don't tend to use dried herbs and flowers as I find my gerbils aren't very interested in them for the most part. They much prefer fresh herbs and flowers. You don't have to include them in your calculations if you don't want to as they won't alter it by much (and they certainly won't alter it for the worse). I would recommend feeding some leafy vegetables or herbs, fresh or dried, for the Vitamin K, which seeds, insects etc contain very little of. It's actually doubtful whether rodents need Vitamin K in their diet at all because they can manufacture it in their guts but to be on the safe, feed some leafy vegetables alongside your homemade diet. Rat Rations does charge postage and it's relatively high (a minimum of around £5). They also have a good selection of herbs and flowers. I have gone on to the database and found the ingrediets I think but I'm not sure if this works on a phone properly? I know how to use it but I can't seem to actually click on the boxes I will try on a laptop soon Also some questions (sorry): Is red millet on here? I can't find it but does it have any other names? Are maize grits/ cut maize the same as whole maize/ maize grain in nutrition? Thanks very much again!
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pea
member
I get a cheese and onion one, and a salt and vinegar one, and I eat them in the same go
Posts: 34
|
Post by pea on Mar 24, 2022 16:08:05 GMT -8
Making your own mix from scratch is certainly ambitious but I'll try to answer all your questions as best I can To use the calculator, first look at the Ingredients tab and find the name of the ingredient you want to use. Then find the number in the No. column. Every ingredient has its own number. Then go to the Mixer tab and enter that number in the No. column there. The database will then use this number to look up the name of the ingredient you are referencing and it will appear in the next cell. Farinaceous seeds are the same thing as flour seeds. That just means seeds that are higher in carbohydrate and lower in fat. Grains are a type of farinaceous seed. The other type of seed is oil seeds or fatty seeds. These are higher in fat and lower in carbohydrate. They also tend to be higher in protein. The reason I've divided these two types of seeds into different categories in the database is because they are both very important to have in your food mix - you don't want to have all flour seeds or all oil seeds - and it's best to have a particular ratio of flour seeds/grains to oil seeds. Usually this ratio is somewhere between 60:40 and 80:20. I find the easiest way to start designing a new mix is to first decide what ratio of flour to oil seeds you want. For young, growing gerbils 60:40 is a good place to start. Then choose which flour seeds and which oil seeds you want to use. So if you have decided you want a 60:40 ratio, you might then choose 6 different grains or flour seeds to use, and add 10g of each one to the Mixer, to add up to 60g. Or you could have more of some and less of others, as long as it still adds up to 60g. Then you might choose 10 different oil seeds and add 4g of each one to the Mixer, to add up to 40g. Then you add the other ingredients such as insects, dried vegetables etc. This way is much easier than just putting ingredients randomly into the calculator. Personally I don't tend to use dried herbs and flowers as I find my gerbils aren't very interested in them for the most part. They much prefer fresh herbs and flowers. You don't have to include them in your calculations if you don't want to as they won't alter it by much (and they certainly won't alter it for the worse). I would recommend feeding some leafy vegetables or herbs, fresh or dried, for the Vitamin K, which seeds, insects etc contain very little of. It's actually doubtful whether rodents need Vitamin K in their diet at all because they can manufacture it in their guts but to be on the safe, feed some leafy vegetables alongside your homemade diet. Rat Rations does charge postage and it's relatively high (a minimum of around £5). They also have a good selection of herbs and flowers. I have gone on to the database and found the ingrediets I think but I'm not sure if this works on a phone properly? I know how to use it but I can't seem to actually click on the boxes I will try on a laptop soon Also some questions (sorry): Is red millet on here? I can't find it but does it have any other names? Are maize grits/ cut maize the same as whole maize/ maize grain in nutrition? Thanks very much again! edit: ah I needed to download the app! YES I CAN DO IT NOW!!!!!!!!!
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pea
member
I get a cheese and onion one, and a salt and vinegar one, and I eat them in the same go
Posts: 34
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Post by pea on Mar 24, 2022 16:11:28 GMT -8
I have gone on to the database and found the ingrediets I think but I'm not sure if this works on a phone properly? I know how to use it but I can't seem to actually click on the boxes I will try on a laptop soon Also some questions (sorry): Is red millet on here? I can't find it but does it have any other names? Are maize grits/ cut maize the same as whole maize/ maize grain in nutrition? Thanks very much again! edit: ah I needed to download the app! YES I CAN DO IT NOW!!!!!!!!! Oh I need to request access😅
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Post by LilyandDaisy on Mar 24, 2022 16:57:17 GMT -8
I've never used the database on a phone so not sure how well it would work.
The millet question gets a bit confusing. During my research I found that the most common millet (panicum miliaceum) can be referred to as white millet, red millet or proso millet. I believe there is a cultivar (a slightly different variety within the same species) of proso millet that is red rather than yellow. It's like how there are pumpkins that are selectively bred to be white (ghost pumpkins), but they're still the same species as normal orange pumpkins.
But there are other millet species which being red in colour may sometimes be called "red millet", such as foxtail or finger millet.
I've bought Rat Ration's "red millet" before and it looks identical to their white proso millet, just red, so I'm inclined to think it is red proso millet but I couldn't be certain.
I believe maize grits is maize cut into lots of little pieces. I can't find specific nutritional information for it but since it's just cut up rather than having any parts removed, I suppose it might be quite similar nutritionally to whole maize.
I'm not sure why it's asking you to request access as usually on a laptop anyone can just make their own copy of the database. But I've given you access to view and copy it anyway. I'm unsure how it works on a phone but on a laptop you need to click File, then Make a Copy, and then save it to your Google Drive.
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pea
member
I get a cheese and onion one, and a salt and vinegar one, and I eat them in the same go
Posts: 34
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Post by pea on Mar 25, 2022 1:18:12 GMT -8
I've never used the database on a phone so not sure how well it would work. The millet question gets a bit confusing. During my research I found that the most common millet (panicum miliaceum) can be referred to as white millet, red millet or proso millet. I believe there is a cultivar (a slightly different variety within the same species) of proso millet that is red rather than yellow. It's like how there are pumpkins that are selectively bred to be white (ghost pumpkins), but they're still the same species as normal orange pumpkins. But there are other millet species which being red in colour may sometimes be called "red millet", such as foxtail or finger millet. I've bought Rat Ration's "red millet" before and it looks identical to their white proso millet, just red, so I'm inclined to think it is red proso millet but I couldn't be certain. I believe maize grits is maize cut into lots of little pieces. I can't find specific nutritional information for it but since it's just cut up rather than having any parts removed, I suppose it might be quite similar nutritionally to whole maize. I'm not sure why it's asking you to request access as usually on a laptop anyone can just make their own copy of the database. But I've given you access to view and copy it anyway. I'm unsure how it works on a phone but on a laptop you need to click File, then Make a Copy, and then save it to your Google Drive. Thank you I have saved the file and it works!!!!!!!!
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