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Post by wendybird on Apr 12, 2022 20:18:03 GMT -8
I tentatively plan to pair a 12 wk old male to a 6 wk old female. Thoughts on this? Do I even need to do a split cage or will they really except each other at these ages?
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Post by Thelodar on Apr 13, 2022 2:50:01 GMT -8
Personally I would wait until they are older. In this scenario the female will get pregnant while she is still quite young, before she's even full grown. It's not ideal for her or for the pups to have such an immature mom.
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Post by wendybird on Apr 13, 2022 19:58:18 GMT -8
Personally I would wait until they are older. In this scenario the female will get pregnant while she is still quite young, before she's even full grown. It's not ideal for her or for the pups to have such an immature mom. I see different thoughts on age of new mothers. What do you consider ideal? 6 months? |
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Post by sparkbubble on Apr 14, 2022 8:21:00 GMT -8
My gerbil was six months when she mated (Long story, mis-sexing) and all but one pup has died. I saw an estimation on the internet that one year is like 30 years for a gerbil (considering their average lifespan is 3-4 years, I'd think that's accurate). Basically, what your asking is for a 15-16 year old to have kids. While animals are different, I'd consider waiting at least 7 months for healthy pups. Gerbils can breed until they are 18 months old, So you'd still have time. This is only my personal opinion considering what has happened to mine (although she is a petstore gerbil, and those kinds of animals are notorious for unhealthy genes). Are you intending to become a breeder? Good luck! www.gerbilwelfare.com/how-to-tell-your-gerbils-age/#:~:text=1%20human%20year%20would%20be,is%20about%202%20gerbil%20years. |
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Post by wendybird on Apr 15, 2022 21:50:23 GMT -8
My gerbil was six months when she mated (Long story, mis-sexing) and all but one pup has died. I saw an estimation on the internet that one year is like 30 years for a gerbil (considering their average lifespan is 3-4 years, I'd think that's accurate). Basically, what your asking is for a 15-16 year old to have kids. While animals are different, I'd consider waiting at least 7 months for healthy pups. Gerbils can breed until they are 18 months old, So you'd still have time. This is only my personal opinion considering what has happened to mine (although she is a petstore gerbil, and those kinds of animals are notorious for unhealthy genes). Are you intending to become a breeder? Good luck! www.gerbilwelfare.com/how-to-tell-your-gerbils-age/#:~:text=1%20human%20year%20would%20be,is%20about%202%20gerbil%20years. That was an interesting article thank you! I'm so sad you had a bad experience with losing pups. We started breeding a little while ago and are on our 6 litter currently, 30 pups. So far we have been fortunate to only lose one pup to a freak accident. I know it's tempting to anthropomorphize how breeding at a certain age may be traumatizing somehow, but I'm not sure we should jump to that conclusion. Is 4 months not the age they would be breeding in the wild? I had a 3 month old breed, not on purpose, and she raised her pups successfully on her own. I was a nervous wreck at first because I had read that is "too young" but in the end was very impressed. Her pups were fatter than her older siblings pups that were even a few days older, and she had the sire to help! I would love to hear more anecdotal stories from breeders and mother's under 6 months old. After 3 litters from younger mothers doing fantastic, 2 of those were large litters too, I am more inclined to believe there are other factors more at play on what determines the outcomes. I've also read that younger males are more clueless when it comes to breeding. So I'm wondering if he would even attempt it for a while. We have had more than one pair that was together for months before they started breeding, and they were older. Thoughts? |
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Post by sparkbubble on Apr 16, 2022 5:43:18 GMT -8
Huh, now that is an interesting observation. I simply assumed that waiting was better for health reasons (both human and gerbil alike), I never considered that I was associating human morals with gerbils. I guess this is a good reminder that we are not animals and animals aren't human.
I thought males mature later than females. Is the clueless-ness be to due to the fact that they cannot even mate yet or just not being instinctually prepared? Also, what did you end up doing with all those pups?
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Post by wendybird on Apr 16, 2022 6:48:47 GMT -8
Huh, now that is an interesting observation. I simply assumed that waiting was better for health reasons (both human and gerbil alike), I never considered that I was associating human morals with gerbils. I guess this is a good reminder that we are not animals and animals aren't human. I thought males mature later than females. Is the clueless-ness be to due to the fact that they cannot even mate yet or just not being instinctually prepared? Also, what did you end up doing with all those pups? It may very well be better for health reasons to wait. I've not read any scientific information either way and would love to hear this and observations from experienced breeders. I have read that inexperienced/younger males can be the cause of what can look like infertility. So I would assume this means they are slower to mature. But I'd love more feedback. That is why I was thinking it was ok to put two pups in together because then they would bond and only mate when ready. Unlike putting a 2 month old in with an experienced year old male. I could be way off on this. We have been able to find great homes for all our pups. We have a waiting list and a pet store begging me for them. Not sure I can let go of the control of who gets to buy our pups though. I expected to have trouble selling because of what I'd read but there are no breeders in my area and evidently a market for them. We are very fortunate. We are doing this because my daughter wanted to learn about genetics and we are really enjoying getting to know this wonderful little species. I'm converting all the hamster owners and rodent haters I know 😂 |
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Post by LilyandDaisy on Apr 16, 2022 7:16:48 GMT -8
I'm not a breeder, but I think 6 months is the prime of life for a gerbil. Definitely not too young to breed.
Gerbil and human lifespans can't be directly compared because humans have an unusually long childhood period. We are the anomalies here. Most animals have a much shorter infancy period as a proportion of their total lifespan. To a certain extent there are cultural factors as well. There are places and times in history where it would be totally normal for a 16-year-old girl to marry and have a baby. The age of 15-18 in humans is probably quite similar to 8-12 weeks old for gerbils - the age when they are sexually mature and largely finished growing but still have fat and muscle mass to gain.
Gerbils in the wild breed seasonally during spring and summer. This means that by the time the next breeding season rolls around, the youngest of last year's litters would be at least 4-6 months old.
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Post by wendybird on Apr 16, 2022 15:22:46 GMT -8
I'm not a breeder, but I think 6 months is the prime of life for a gerbil. Definitely not too young to breed. Gerbil and human lifespans can't be directly compared because humans have an unusually long childhood period. We are the anomalies here. Most animals have a much shorter infancy period as a proportion of their total lifespan. To a certain extent there are cultural factors as well. There are places and times in history where it would be totally normal for a 16-year-old girl to marry and have a baby. The age of 15-18 in humans is probably quite similar to 8-12 weeks old for gerbils - the age when they are sexually mature and largely finished growing but still have fat and muscle mass to gain. Gerbils in the wild breed seasonally during spring and summer. This means that by the time the next breeding season rolls around, the youngest of last year's litters would be at least 4-6 months old. That is so fascinating they only breed in the spring/summer! Do they breed continually in captivity because of the climate controlled environment? |
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Post by betty on Apr 18, 2022 9:18:11 GMT -8
I would imagine the seasonal breeding was related to not only the temperature/climate - but mainly the food available and to society as a whole. Raising a litter and stashing food etc is all controlled by strict society protocals and so breeding has to fit in with that just as much as females and males mixing with other clans, or renovating the underground chambers, etc.
In a pet home of course they don't have ANY of those controls to guide them on when breeding is best and of course over the generations, we may well have bred more of those females who have less seasonality as well - thereby increasing those genes in the gene pool. Some types of 'pet' animals - less common than Mongolians - still keep to these seasons though.
Another good argument for waiting (along with the 'last season' comment above) is that there is no way to know the health and overall being of a female gerbil at such a young age - and so chosing her for a breeding program is 'an unknown'. Choosing a female because you have her right now isn't the best long term strategy for a breeding program - especially when starting up a new line or clan as you don't know what you are breeding in to your lines - and may well not know for another 2-5 years when herself or her offspring are older and start to expose some of their issues. If you are intending to keep almost all of your first few generations to watch this closely - then of course that is a different matter as it will only be your own animals you are working with (rather than homing them to pet owners without a real idea of any issues that might crop up).
Female gerbils can very well breed and raise pups at a younger age - but as they are still growing themselves and childrearing is so biologically demanding - many breeders chose to have her reach her own adulthood first - and then let her take that strain of pups after, rather than perhaps slow her own maturity down to feed the pups instead.
Experience tells us that breeding them younger in captivity doesn't necessarily shorten their lives or affect the growth of the pups that we can tell, but this is more of a societal or personal issue for breeders. What do we personally want to be seen to be doing with the animal in our care versus can they actually produce live young at X age. It is between you and the people you are selling the pups to who decide on this.
You are certainly on to something about the younger males - sometimes they are totally clueless and an older female could well beat them up and chase them off for dithering about...
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