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Post by fancyoaf on Jun 9, 2022 9:33:57 GMT -8
HISTORY: Pancake and Waffles are sisters who've been together since birth. They were introduced to a lonely older gerbil Fang, who's sister Whiskers had died of a stroke a few months earlier, and was showing signs of depression. They lived together under Queen Fang for about a year and a half before declanning and kicking Fang out (she was already super old and died of old age a few months later). But Pancake and Waffles have been really good friends their whole lives. THE EVENT: I was working late last night with headphones on rocking to music when I turned and saw Waffles covered in blood drinking water. Pancake climbed out of the house and was all bloody too. Looks like they had a pretty bad fight, but were behaving pretty friendly with each other. They were a little paranoid of each other, but weren't acting aggressive. At first pancake wouldn't let Waffles into their little mushroom house, but after an hour she gave up, and they slept with each other for about half an hour before they got up and started doing normal gerbil things. They didn't look like they were going to fight again, and I currently have no good way to separate them and it was super late at night (don't have multiple water bottles or a divider for their cage), so I went to bed, and when I woke up, they're snuggled up with each other in their bed, and it looks like they've cleaned most of the blood off themselves. I've had older gerbils fight with younger ones before as the power structure shifts, but I've never had a pair of sisters fight, so this is new territory for me. Do you think they'll be alright, or should I be weary, and still consider separating them?P.S. Pancake is the one drinking form the water, Waffles is the one impatiently waiting for her turn at the water bottle. They look super similar, but Pancake has lighter markings, and Waffles has slightly darker markings and a faint light diamond shape on her head.
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Post by fancyoaf on Jun 10, 2022 12:14:24 GMT -8
They seem to be getting along. They've been sleeping together. I caught them grooming each other this morning, and that was going well till Waffles tried to groom Pancake's wound that's still pretty sore and she left to go drink some water. I've also seen them groom themselves while near each other, and I've heard gerbils will generally not groom themselves if they feel immediately nervous or threatened. Pancake's face is pretty swollen. She got bit in the face and her cheeks are super puffy. It makes it hard for her to drink, so I'm praying that the swelling goes down. I'm hoping the fight was about something stupid, like Pancake wanted to leave the house, but Waffles butt was plugging the exit.
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Post by LilyandDaisy on Jun 10, 2022 12:37:36 GMT -8
It's good that they appear to be getting along now. Bear in mind that the fight could have just cooled things down temporarily without necessarily solving the underlying issue so you'll need to keep a really close eye on them if you decide to keep them together still. It is very risky. Personally I would separate them, but it's your call.
Gerbils will sometimes self-groom when feeling nervous or uncertain. It's usually just a very quick groom of the nose and face rather than anything more thorough.
A vet will be able to prescribe a painkiller and anti-inflammatory which should help Pancake if she's very uncomfortable.
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Post by fancyoaf on Jun 10, 2022 14:05:45 GMT -8
Thanks for the tip! I've been keeping a really close eye on them. They're in my home office, and I've been spending most of my time in here, even when not working to keep an eye on the two little fluff nuggets. I'd like if they could stay together, they still got a few years of life in them and it's pretty sad when gerbils have to live separated and lonely. If they start showing any sort of aggressive behavior, I'll split them up for good, but for now, Waffles is giving Pancake a full body grooming, and it's super cute.
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Post by fancyoaf on Jun 13, 2022 19:21:38 GMT -8
So far they're still getting along. I think they're gonna have some scars from the fight, but they seem happy together again. Still keeping a close eye on them. But neither has made any aggressive moves towards the other. I'll keep you all up to date on the situation, but they seem pretty happy together.
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Post by betty on Jun 17, 2022 3:40:33 GMT -8
How are they now fancyoaf - hopefully Pancake's face isn't swollen anymore? Would be great to have an update if you have time...
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Post by fancyoaf on Jun 22, 2022 0:56:51 GMT -8
How are they now fancyoaf - hopefully Pancake's face isn't swollen anymore? Would be great to have an update if you have time... Oh yeah! Sorry about the delay, life has been crazy and I forgot to update! The swelling lasted about two days, but quickly subsided. Waffles limp only lasted that first night and she was back to her crazy waffly self soon after. Both gerbils are doing much better and seem to be getting along just fine. As we speak they are politely taking turns on the running wheel, and pancake just gave me a wink. The wounds have pretty much completely healed, except for a tiny bit of scab left on Waffles cheek. Looks like Pancake might have some permanent scaring just behind her mouth on her cheek where she's missing some fur, but they don't seem to be in pain anymore and are super energetic. They have gone back to sleeping on top of each other and lots of grooming. I'm still keeping an eye on them, but they act so loving towards each other I have high hopes they'll continue to get along.
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Post by betty on Jun 23, 2022 4:03:37 GMT -8
Phew - what a relief.
And sometimes the coat needs to wait until next moult to come through - it depends where the hairs were in their growth cycle before they fell out.
Let's hope they never repeat that again...
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Post by fancyoaf on Jun 24, 2022 13:22:45 GMT -8
They're always sleeping like this, with one face in the entrance, and the other with their butt on their head. It's cute :3
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Post by LilyandDaisy on Jun 24, 2022 14:03:28 GMT -8
They do look snug there and let's hope it continues.
Thank you for sharing your experience. It's food for thought. It's possible that there was a simple change in the hierarchy and it required a bloody fight to sort it out. When advising from afar, based on just a description of what has happened, we can never recommend keeping gerbils together after blood has been drawn because the risk is so high, but it seems like it's working for yours, so far.
I've been reading about split tank introductions on the German gerbil forum (rennmaus.de) lately and it seems they will even tolerate some ball fighting after the divider is removed, as long it's not too violent and doesn't go on for too long. They will wait, say, 5 seconds, before breaking up a ball fight, and then only put the divider back in if it keeps happening. They consider it an important way of sorting out the hierarchy. I don't know if I could actually stand back and watch a ball fight for 5 seconds. I understand the reasoning, I just don't think I could do it. But, there you have it. It's always interesting to get different perspectives.
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Post by betty on Jun 25, 2022 3:44:12 GMT -8
Like you LilyandDaisy, I have never wanted to leave them together after any fighting - but then I always had the space, resources and spare 'other' single gerbils to re-pair everyone again.
However, keepers with limited space or a more vested interest in only keeping that one pair may well try a few extra things before splitting the original pair - and like this one here - the more successes we hear about the more we can potentially adapt our advice going forwards. All very interesting.
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Post by Markpd on Jun 25, 2022 4:56:43 GMT -8
Like you LilyandDaisy, I have never wanted to leave them together after any fighting - but then I always had the space, resources and spare 'other' single gerbils to re-pair everyone again. However, keepers with limited space or a more vested interest in only keeping that one pair may well try a few extra things before splitting the original pair - and like this one here - the more successes we hear about the more we can potentially adapt our advice going forwards. All very interesting. Interesting stuff indeed, although I would add that it's too soon to say with this pair that it is now a success, and TBH I don't think we'll know it's been success until they pass away from old age. But perhaps you didn't mean that it's been a success yet? but it did read like that. **************** fancyoaf et al Even if I was successfully able to re-intro my boys, I just couldn't trust them together in the long run. As I'm out all day at work (not to mention some evenings out and holidays), I'm just not there much to supervise them. And the 2nd time my boys declanned it was pretty much out of the blue, they seemed to be getting on great (better than before the 1st declan), maybe a single warning sign a week or 2 before?, then suddenly I found them covered in blood after being in the garden an hour! But it sounds like you work from home fancyoaf, so you're able to monitor them much more than I could my boys. Oh, just a thought, keep an eye out if they squabble over any one item, maybe that's what triggered them?? So if they regularly squabble over the water bottle, try adding a 2nd one, same with a sandbath, although I appreciate that can cause space problems. So keep your fingers crossed they don't squabble over a wheel! How old are your girls? Btw, that last photo you posted of them is very cute . And at some point, whether they live their lives out together or not, could you report your experience to the following thread? TIA - gerbilforum.proboards.com/thread/34726/report-clan-experiences-good-bad
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Post by betty on Jun 25, 2022 7:08:19 GMT -8
Both.
Bearing in mind that this pair had already shown signs of a declan (ie they wouldn't have been classed as a successful clan anyway if they were in my clan for example, as I would have split them up already (just my personal go-to)) the choice to keep them together as they seemed OK after the fact is something new that we can learn from already.
It was actually a success in of itself: two gerbils who drew (a lot) of blood not having to be split up immediately - a very hopeful piece of advice for the many many gerbil owners who only have one enclosure or only space/finances for one enclosure.
Obviously a life-long successful clan is the dream goal in life - but sometimes this is out of our control anyway - for example if one gerbil escapes for too long, or one gerbil gets long-term ill or seriously injured. In these such instances we will never really know if it would have been a successful clan either way because that 'thing', whatever it was, got in the way.
So I get what you are saying about a truly successful re-clan after a fight would need to be able to prove that they lived together until one of them passess (and I have agreed with that statement many times in previous posts) - we are also in a place here where the more people who are able to have gerbils who have fought - stay together for even another 6 months - it becomes a possible option going forward.
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Post by fancyoaf on Aug 15, 2022 13:33:41 GMT -8
Well, it happened. I walked in this morning and there were signs of a fight. Pancake has wounds on her chin, and Waffles has wounds on her neck. The wounds don't seem super bad, and both are still full of energy, but they were both showing signs of aggression towards one another. I broke them up by putting on in the carry cage. Then I busted out the wire mesh I bought around the time of the first fight (just in case), cut it to size, then hot glued it around the edges. I had separate water bottles, food bowls, and running wheels prepared, so they are officially split. I was hoping the peace between the two would last, but it seems like they'll likely continue to hurt each other. Now they're doomed to be lonely forever.
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Post by tanzanyte on Aug 16, 2022 13:13:00 GMT -8
I'm sorry to hear this and I hope their wounds heal without any issue. It's interesting that they have managed for several months after their first fight. You could always keep them in a long term split so that they aren't completely lonely. They obviously don't mind some interaction to manage like they have after their first altercation so I'd imagine it would work well with a permanent divider.
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