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Post by LilyandDaisy on Jun 26, 2022 16:51:31 GMT -8
Reading through old threads in this section lately, I noticed how few complete stories there are of split tank introductions, especially successful ones. There are many threads about issues during split tanks, and unsuccessful attempted introductions, but we usually never know how it ended. In addition, the abundance of threads about unsuccessful split tanks can be intimidating to anyone about to begin one. People tend not to post when their introductions are going smoothly, which can give an overly negative impression of split tanks! So this is a thread to post your experiences of split tank introductions, whether successful or unsuccessful. Things that might be useful to include in your reply are: - The ages and sexes of the gerbils involved - Their histories, whether they were previously living with other gerbils, whether they had been involved in a declan, whether they had been bred etc - Their temperaments if you think it has a bearing on how the split tank went - Details of the split tank you used - size, type of divider, whether you gave the gerbils any houses or toys or left the tank bare - How often you swapped sides - How long you split tanked for before attempting an introduction, and what were the signs that made you think they were ready - Any other details you think are relevant or important Most importantly, include whether the split tank was successful or not, i.e whether the gerbils ended up living together peacefully. If they initially appeared ok but declanned very soon after the introduction (within a few days), I would say that's an unsuccessful split tank. If they declanned later on, I will leave that up to your judgment whether you think it was always an unsuccessful split tank, or a successful split tank followed by a declan. It is helpful, but not essential, to note what happened long term with the gerbils, whether they ended up declanning or living together for the rest of their lives, and you might also want to contribute this information to Markpd's clan experiences thread. This thread is specifically for introductions using the split tank method, rather than any other methods. There are more or less traditional ways to do a split tank. The traditional way is to start with a small and sparsly furnished tank and swap the gerbils several times a day, but sometimes people will do it differently, e.g using larger tanks, not swapping sides etc. Any method that involved a tank split in half belongs here. If you used a different introduction method you might like to contribute your experience in this thread.
Please only contribute information for completed split tank introductions - introductions that have ended either in the gerbils living together or not living together - not ongoing introductions.
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Post by Markpd on Jun 27, 2022 12:03:10 GMT -8
Good idea for a thread, (I've pinned it for you) , I'm surprised we haven't done it before! lol I will add mine, although I'm not sure it counts here as it wasn't really traditionally, although I did use a divided cage. What d'you reckon?
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Post by LilyandDaisy on Jun 27, 2022 12:35:04 GMT -8
Good idea for a thread, (I've pinned it for you) , I'm surprised we haven't done it before! lol I will add mine, although I'm not sure it counts here as it wasn't really traditionally, although I did use a divided cage. What d'you reckon? I think any method that involves a divided cage, with the intention of getting the gerbils to live together, counts.
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Post by Markpd on Jun 29, 2022 12:13:08 GMT -8
Ok, will do, although ultimately they declanned after a month so it's not really a positive story to kick off your thread! lol Perhaps you should add in your successful intro of Tilly with Daisy in an earlier post of yours? Onto my boys, bought from a local breeder I was told they are brothers, so presumably had been together since birth. They declanned when they were just ~13 months old (although their had been the odd skirmish up to 6 months beforehand), I divided the cage July 10th (2021) and swapped them once daily (I didn't and don't have time to do it more) and re-intro'd them on Aug 18th, after they seemed to be getting on fine through the mesh. The previous day I had attempted an intro but their was quite a tense moment, so I split them again. Then on the day of the intro they got on much better, and until the declan on Oct 3rd they seemed to be getting on better then they ever had, until out of the blue they violently declanned . I think the intro was successful but ultimately they couldn't get on, I never found out, what if anything triggered the declan.
The split tank was their regular cage (120cm long) divided in 2, at the time I only had one wheel and platform which stayed in there, along with the hut. I left the bedding at full depth.
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Post by LilyandDaisy on Jun 29, 2022 12:44:18 GMT -8
I introduced Daisy, a 2 year 10 month old female to Tilly, a 5 week old female pup. Daisy had previously lived with her sister for her whole life, and was a very calm gerbil. Tilly had just been removed from her mother and sisters. I used a 75x45cm tank, split diagonally, with an inch or two of bedding, scattered food and things to chew. I put them in the split on Saturday afternoon. For the first two minutes, Daisy was alarmed and bit the mesh, but then she calmed down and after that, all signs were positive. I swapped them 3 times a day, and they would always sleep in each other's nests. They would eat side-by-side next to the divider and touch noses through the divider. I initially attempted to introduce them late on Sunday night, but I was surprised to find that Tilly was incredibly pushy and assertive with Daisy. You can see this introduction here and here. I stopped that introduction as I was worried, but tried again on Monday evening. That time, it was initially much the same, but after some time, and after I made the environment as calm and unstimulating as possible (I dimmed the lights and closed the tank lid), Tilly finally calmed down and they slept together. Over the next few days she continued to calm down and they lived together until Daisy died almost 4 months later. Right at the end of Daisy's life, when Tilly was 5 months old, Daisy became very nervous and stressed in general, but especially around Tilly, and was happier when I moved them to a smaller cage. I watched Tilly's behaviour very closely and it always seemed totally innocent to me. It really seemed to me like Daisy was overreacting to completely innocuous behaviour from her. But, I don't speak gerbil, so maybe there was something subtle. Maybe given another few weeks, they might have declanned. Or maybe Daisy really was just paranoid. She was unwell and getting weaker, and I think her illness did affect her cognition. I will never know. But they were a successful and happy clan right up until those last few days at least. So that was a successful introduction and the gerbils lived together until one died. ---- And now for an unsuccessful introduction. I tried to introduce Tilly, now 6 months old, whose history is above, to Astra, a 6-week-old pup. I used the same split tank and setup as above. When I put them in the split, Tilly was initially just wary, but then she became aggressive, and in the end she was attacking the mesh whenever Astra was near, and chasing her up and down the divider. Over a few days, this seemed to be getting worse rather than better, so I stopped the introduction for Astra's sake. (Astra was reunited with her sister Twiglet, but I did that introduction in neutral space since they were so young, so it doesn't count for this thread) In hindsight, I believe that the type of split tank I used may not have helped here. The diagonal split resulted in two fairly narrow spaces, which may have been ok for a calm elderly gerbil and a young pup, but I don't think Tilly liked it at all. It might have contributed to her agitation and I have now made a normal width-wise split for future introductions.
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Post by LilyandDaisy on Jul 29, 2022 11:02:38 GMT -8
Another successful introduction: I introduced Tilly, whose history is in my last post, to Wispa. Tilly was 6 months old at the beginning of the introduction and Wispa was 10 weeks old. Due to the failure of the previous attempt to bond Tilly with Astra I decided to take a more gradual approach this time. I decided to use a 95cm tank instead of the usual small split tank. When Wispa arrived the tank I wanted to use for the split was actually occupied so for a few days, Tilly and Wispa lived in barred cages. I moved the cages gradually closer together over a couple of days. Tilly learnt to tolerate Wispa existing near her but would be aggressive towards the bars when Wispa tried to interact with her or otherwise did something that made her feel threatened. A very angry TillyAfter a few days I moved them into the 95cm split tank, with a 6mm mesh divider. I set it up with enrichment, deep bedding and wheels. For the first two days, Tilly continued to be aggressive towards the mesh, but then she stopped and instead was curious but wary. She often seemed to be trying to get Wispa's attention. From the beginning I would swap their sand baths daily which never elicited any reaction from either of them. I didn't swap sides at all until they had been living side-by-side for one week, and then only once a day. There was never any scent marking but in the beginning Tilly would rearrange everything before settling down. She stopped this after a few days. Wispa would always settle down straight away in Tilly's nest. After a few more days I started swapping them three times per day, and also gradually decreasing their bedding and enrichment in preparation for an "intense" split tank. I also reduced their space down to 60cm (30cm each) with another solid divider. The first introduction was when they had been in the split for 3.5 weeks. I thought Tilly seemed quite relaxed when interacting with Wispa at the divider, they were sleeping in each other's nests and there was no scent-marking or anxious behaviour after swapping sides. Tilly would sometimes sleep next to the divider. Wispa had always seemed fine with Tilly, although she didn't sleep next to Tilly by the divider (I think Tilly would have liked her to?) You can watch this introduction here. Then there is this clip where Wispa is too worried to be interested in food and Tilly will eat a treat but doesn't want to make a move towards Wispa to get it. They clearly weren't at all comfortable around each other yet so I put the divider back in. At some point after this I replaced their 6mm mesh divider with a 13mm mesh divider, so they could interact more. They started grooming through the mesh. I tried another introduction after 9 days. Here are some clips from the first half hour of the introduction. This clip is from about an hour in after I had given them a sand bath. Tilly was fine. She groomed Wispa a lot and generally seemed happy being around her. Wispa was initially wary around Tilly, hid a lot and didn't especially like being groomed. However she relaxed more the longer they were together, and then started being quite annoying and pushy. This increased the tension for a short while to the point they had a few brief scuffles. Tilly would try to groom Wispa's head, but Wispa was never really relaxed. After 5 hours they finally settled down to sleep, but in separate nests. Then I put the divider back in, until the next day. After some initial awkwardness where neither seemed to want to make a move, I gave them a cardboard box, which they destroyed together and then behaved like any other gerbil pair. Wispa was relaxed while Tilly groomed her all over, and they slept together. Like last time, Wispa started getting pushy again after some time together, but overall the confrontations became less tense. They were separated again that night for safety, and spent the whole of the next day together (which went much the same as the day before - generally calm and friendly behaviour, Wispa acting up a bit but Tilly pushing her back into her place) but again were separated for the night. Finally the next day, 5 weeks after they gone into the split, I removed the divider permanently. That was on 13th July this year. If they ever declan or have any issues I will update this post. If not assume they are still living happily together.
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Post by Markpd on Jul 29, 2022 15:06:04 GMT -8
I've updated my previous post with more info, lmk if I've missed anything out. Good to see Tilly and Wispa are getting along nicely now
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Post by icecontroller2529 on Aug 5, 2022 12:19:07 GMT -8
Great thread, we still need more information about introductions and split tanks.
I would like to share my experience, although more in general.
We had several introduction attempts after a declan, one of them with a breeder. All of them were unsuccessful. Living in the Netherlands, we tried "the Dutch method" which - among others - means that a very small tank is being used, without any houses, toys etc.
The tank (we bought it from a breeder and gerbilarium seller) was 40 x 30 x 30 cm (about 16 x 12 x 12 inches) with double mesh in the middle. This is a standard tank for introductions in the Netherlands.
I want to mention that Dutch breeders seem to agree that this is working. The thought is that the gerbils are close together and there is no distraction, so they will get into contact and bond more easily.
My experience, however, is ... choosing my words carefully here ... My experience is that the gerbils are not doing too well in the tiny, boring tank. Our gerbil got terribly stressed and was probably not open for bonding with another gerbil because of this. I don't want to go into detail more, sorry, this whole experience was not good for me, either. Also, the information I see as interesting here is the contrast between the "Dutch method" and the "British method" with more spacy tanks with options for exercise and stimulation.
So, according to the Dutch method, the gerbils are supposed to be in the split tank for a week (swapping them three times a day), then you are supposed to start the first introduction attempt. If it goes wrong, you should put the gerbils back into the split tank for another week and so on.
Personally, I advise against using small tanks without stimulation. In my opinion, this is not good for the animals, it stresses them out enormously. Should I ever dare an introduction again (which is highly unlikely at this point), I would try a large tank with a wheel on both sides and toys / stimulation, and I would only try an actual introduction when the gerbils show signs that they are ready for it.
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Post by LilyandDaisy on Aug 6, 2022 3:09:51 GMT -8
Great thread, we still need more information about introductions and split tanks. I would like to share my experience, although more in general. We had several introduction attempts after a declan, one of them with a breeder. All of them were unsuccessful. Living in the Netherlands, we tried "the Dutch method" which - among others - means that a very small tank is being used, without any houses, toys etc.
The tank (we bought it from a breeder and gerbilarium seller) was 40 x 30 x 30 cm (about 16 x 12 x 12 inches) with double mesh in the middle. This is a standard tank for introductions in the Netherlands. I want to mention that Dutch breeders seem to agree that this is working. The thought is that the gerbils are close together and there is no distraction, so they will get into contact and bond more easily. My experience, however, is ... choosing my words carefully here ... My experience is that the gerbils are not doing too well in the tiny, boring tank. Our gerbil got terribly stressed and was probably not open for bonding with another gerbil because of this. I don't want to go into detail more, sorry, this whole experience was not good for me, either. Also, the information I see as interesting here is the contrast between the "Dutch method" and the "British method" with more spacy tanks with options for exercise and stimulation. So, according to the Dutch method, the gerbils are supposed to be in the split tank for a week (swapping them three times a day), then you are supposed to start the first introduction attempt. If it goes wrong, you should put the gerbils back into the split tank for another week and so on. Personally, I advise against using small tanks without stimulation. In my opinion, this is not good for the animals, it stresses them out enormously. Should I ever dare an introduction again (which is highly unlikely at this point), I would try a large tank with a wheel on both sides and toys / stimulation, and I would only try an actual introduction when the gerbils show signs that they are ready for it. Thank you for your thoughts! Yes, more general posts are fine too. 40x30cm is a very small split tank. I'm not surprised gerbils would get very stressed in that. The usual method in the UK, US etc is to use a tank of around 60x30cm, with no enrichment (aside from perhaps cardboard and hay). I think you do need at least a few days where they're in a small space with not much to do because the process works through their boredom. In Tilly's case, I found when she got bored she would seek out interaction, either with me, or if I refused to give it, with Wispa. You also don't want to have a tank full of bedding, houses, tubes etc when you remove the divider. You need a clear field so you can see what the gerbils are doing and so they can't trap each other in dead ends or hide. But you don't want to remove everything on the morning of the introduction as that would really disrupt them so you need to gradually reduce everything in the prior days and weeks. Or you can just start from an empty split tank from the beginning. I agree that high stress won't help bonding, but I think you have to distinguish between different types of stress. High stress through extremely small spaces, pain, starvation, fear and so on should always be avoided. Some older bonding methods (ones that involve water especially) rely on this type of stress and shouldn't be used because they are traumatic for the gerbils (and hopefully the owner) and because there are humane methods available. I don't think boredom comes under that category of traumatic stress. It's tedious and unpleasant, but not harmful in the short term. Stressors are often necessary to motivate certain behaviours. For example if you have an overweight gerbil and you want them to be more active, you might start scattering their food instead of putting it in a bowl right next to their house. Technically you are imposing a stressor on them and making their life a little bit more difficult, because the alternative of being hungry is going to require them to be more active than maybe they really wanted to be. But it's not harmful, and probably beneficial. I don't think allowing gerbils to get bored in a split tank is so different. It's short term discomfort for long term gain. 40x30cm is too small though. With only 20cm of space, the gerbils will get claustrophobic which is highly stressful.
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Post by gerbilord on Aug 6, 2022 10:29:55 GMT -8
Hi LilyandDaisy - just a silly question as I’ve never done an introduction before.. (Sorry to break the flow of the thread!) When you say a tank of 60x30, is that the entire enclosure disregarding the split? I’m just thinking only having 30cm of space each seems very tough - once bonded would you then expand the home to the “normal” size of 80cm+? I’d just be worried about suddenly moving them into a bigger space causing declan. Could you do the same bonding in their normal cage size or is there more chance of success if given less space? Also how long would you leave them in the little cage without enrichment once they’re bonded?
To stop me clogging up this thread with questions i wonder if we should have another thread literally for the purpose of asking questions about bonding? If so I can delete my post from here and keep it neat and tidy.
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Post by LilyandDaisy on Aug 6, 2022 11:05:18 GMT -8
Yes, 60x30cm is the entire enclosure and then that's split in half with mesh. You can use a bigger tank of course, 60cm is just the traditional size, as it's a commonly found tank size both in the UK and US.
Tilly and Wispa were actually introduced in a 60x45cm space, divided in two, so it was a little more spacious than a 60x30cm tank but I felt that didn't matter because they still only had a maximum of 30cm of space to get away from the other. It was a larger tank divided down and I reduced their space gradually. I think they were only in that small of a space for about the last week.
To be safe you would then gradually increase their space rather than increasing it suddenly.
Personally I think I waited a week before giving Tilly and Wispa anything apart from a sand bath. Then I started giving them more bedding, a platform and tubes.
I believe in Germany they are increasingly doing introductions in larger spaces, nothing less than 80cm, and with more enrichment. In the past they advised to use smaller tanks (a 100x50cm tank split in half and half again was one suggestion), but that appears to have fallen out of favour a bit. Also they don't really like to split tank for more than a couple of weeks. Sometimes they don't even swap sides, and just swap sand baths and bits of bedding. However, I've also seen it said on rennmaus.de that adult introductions are only 50% successful, which I don't think is a great success rate. Still, if 50% of pairs can be introduced that way then it suggests that the traditional split isn't necessary in every case.
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Post by Markpd on Aug 10, 2022 13:33:00 GMT -8
Hey icecontroller2529 , good to hear from you . Sorry I still haven't replied to your emails, I will do at some point! Anyway, interesting posts
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Post by tanzanyte on Aug 23, 2022 13:54:37 GMT -8
Thanks for all of this info, it's incredibly helpful, not to mention interesting that it's so different depending on where we are in the world. Can I just ask given that it's been mentioned here - is adding hay definitely ok? I'm so worried about adding the wrong thing. I know from what I've read that girls can be more difficult to bond and given that I have 2 girls who are almost 2years old I don't imagine it's going to be an easy time. They have a very small diameter cardboard tube and I've put a toilet roll in there and toilet paper and the 1-2 inches of substrate, a water bottle and they are scatter fed.
Mymble was very aggressive towards the divider yesterday and poor Hattie was squeaking but it's calmed a little today so I don't want to do anything that might upset the applecart but I feel terrible that Mymble is so stressed and has lost half of her cage and outdoor area. I'm pretty sure that if someone waltzed into my house, changed everything and told me they were taking half of it I'd be more than a little aggressive and stressed too.
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Post by LilyandDaisy on Aug 23, 2022 14:11:23 GMT -8
Thanks for all of this info, it's incredibly helpful, not to mention interesting that it's so different depending on where we are in the world. Can I just ask given that it's been mentioned here - is adding hay definitely ok? I'm so worried about adding the wrong thing. I know from what I've read that girls can be more difficult to bond and given that I have 2 girls who are almost 2years old I don't imagine it's going to be an easy time. They have a very small diameter cardboard tube and I've put a toilet roll in there and toilet paper and the 1-2 inches of substrate, a water bottle and they are scatter fed. Mymble was very aggressive towards the divider yesterday and poor Hattie was squeaking but it's calmed a little today so I don't want to do anything that might upset the applecart but I feel terrible that Mymble is so stressed and has lost half of her cage and outdoor area. I'm pretty sure that if someone waltzed into my house, changed everything and told me they were taking half of it I'd be more than a little aggressive and stressed too. Hay is ok because it's not an "object" they can really get territorial over. It will keep them occupied and distracted which in the final stretch of the split when you're gearing up to try an introduction may be a hindrance but right now it's fine. Giving enrichment at this point may prolong the process but shouldn't damage your chances of success so if you're uncomfortable with how Mymble is reacting you can absolutely take things a bit slower for her sake. You can even give her a wheel if you want (not for the whole process, but temporarily). It's up to you, as up know her best. With two adult females you're looking at a fairly long introduction anyway so you don't need to go all in straight away. It's a marathon, not a sprint
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Post by motherofgerbils on Nov 27, 2022 8:08:32 GMT -8
Six weeks ago one of our two female gerbils died unexpectedly (2.5 years old). We contacted the pet shop and they had one female gerbil available who was about 15 weeks old and had been picked on by her litter mates so she was on her own. We have a large gerbilarium and two small ones already because Queenie and Hermione declanned twice before and we had to re-clan them using a two cage method with the cages next to each other and regular swaps. So we started off with them in two cages and swapped them into each other’s cages 1-2 times per day. When we cleaned the cages out I always sprinkled a handful of old bedding from each cage into the fresh. We tried to get them together at about 3 weeks but Autumn the baby wasn’t happy (I ended up getting bitten separating them) so we carried on with them in separate cages. Yesterday we were more prepared with heavy duty gloves and introduced them together in a large space. They seemed ok, and actually started to sniff each other. After about half an hour we progressed and put them in the big tank together, again sprinkling old bedding from both cages into the fresh bedding. They were very very inquisitive and lots of sniffing. There were one or two moments when some dominant behaviour came in and I was poised to separate them but they sorted it out. Fast forward to today and they’re now nesting together! Queenie looks so happy she has a new companion and I’m so happy for Autumn that she’s getting to experience how nice it is to be accepted in a clan. I’m still keeping a close watch but so far, so good. I hope this is helpful for people in a similar situation:)
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