Introduction - am I reading this right?

[LilyandDaisy]

Tilly and my new gerbil have been in the split for 3.5 weeks now and they seemed very relaxed finally, so today I attempted an introduction. Nothing too dramatic happened, but it was clear they weren't ready to be left together.

Clip 1: www.youtube.com/watch?v=mUYAoabsdRc
Clip 2: www.youtube.com/watch?v=xYaprfbY8bg
After that my camera ran out of memory but nothing really happened except more of the same.

Tilly is the larger slate gerbil. The new gerbil "newbie" is the smaller burmese. My interpretation is that they are both wary but newbie wants to reach out to Tilly. They have that initial meeting and squirmish (which I'm not sure how to read). Then Tilly decides to retire to her hole. Newbie tries to appease Tilly by grooming her face. Tilly is like "I don't want to hurt you, but I'm really not comfortable being in the same space as you. Please just leave me alone." Sometimes she resorts to chasing newbie away. If Tilly had felt provoked and pressured enough, she probably could have become violent. I gave them some sunflower seeds hoping it would break the tension but neither was especially interested so then I decided to call it a day and I put them back in the split. Hopefully they just need some more time to get used to each other. They're back to touching noses through the mesh now.

Am I reading this situation correctly?

[Markpd]

As you know I only have minimal experience here, (I'm mainly replying to see others answers!), but seems about right to me.
I played the skirmish at 1/4 speed, and although I could see more of what was happening, it didn't really help me, other than to see that newbie wasn't happy at being put on her back, and possibly flipped Tilly over in response. Have you watched it in slow motion?

[LilyandDaisy]

I think you might be right. Due to newbie's temperament I'm sure she would be happy to submit to Tilly, but here she's quite worried and confused by Tilly's behaviour.

I find Tilly's behaviour very interesting. Whenever she approaches newbie, it's by an indirect route rather than a straight line, for which I can think of two possible reasons:
- Firstly, she's just not very sure of the situation or her actions
- Secondly, she feels it's safer to approach newbie at the side/back rather than the head (where the teeth are)

When she does finally approach newbie the first time, she runs up pretty fast, which looks confrontational. I don't know if that was her intention or not, but either way, newbie feels confronted and it escalates from there.

Newbie, who is a sweet and friendly gerbil, seems to hate the fact that there's been a misunderstanding and goes up to Tilly to try to appease her. Tilly chases her away.

Tilly then sits in her hole and ponders what to do. She's clearly not happy about this situation, but she doesn't really want to fight. She starts approaching newbie again, again indirectly, but then changes her mind. It definitely seems like she's not confident in her actions. She tries again, and this time manages to startle newbie. This might have been an incredibly weak attempt at a chase, but Tilly really doesn't seem to know what she's doing here.

Newbie once again tries to appease Tilly but gets chased away again.

Towards the end, I think I may have startled Tilly by leaning over the tank. She goes to hide in her nest, but has to turf newbie out first. They use the same nests, but this one was most recently occupied by Tilly.

So overall, I think Tilly is uncomfortable and doesn't quite know how to handle the situation, and newbie is nervous and confused.

Any other thoughts?

[LilyandDaisy]

Yesterday I replaced their 6mm mesh divider with one with 13mm mesh, so that they can interact more. The new gerbil will stick her nose through the mesh as far as it will go. At one point I saw Tilly grooming her nose for a long time, while newbie was relaxed with her eyes closed. Tilly doesn't seem to want to put her nose through the mesh which is interesting.

In the process of putting the divider in I had to move the bedding and destroy their nests. Previously they were both nesting in the tank corners. Tilly made her new nest next to the divider. Newbie made hers in a corner as before. This morning I swapped them. Newbie settled down in Tilly's nest next to the divider. Tilly will usually settle down in newbie's nest right away but this time she made a new one, not quite next to the divider, but a couple of inches away. So they're now sleeping near each other, but Tilly seems to be holding newbie at arm's length as it were. I think this is a gerbil who likes to keep boundaries, and adjusts her boundaries strictly on her own terms!

[LilyandDaisy]

Yesterday evening I tried another introduction. I decided an evening introduction was worth a try because that's when Tilly is most sociable. It went much better than last time. Tilly seemed fine. She groomed newbie a lot and generally seemed fine being around her. Newbie was wary around Tilly, hid a lot and didn't especially like being groomed. However she relaxed more the longer they were together.

About an hour in, newbie started being really annoying, constantly pestering Tilly and trying to lick her face. This was interesting because it was similar to how Tilly behaved when I introduced her to Daisy (although not nearly as bad). I felt it was most likely to be an attempt at appeasement, or an attempt to forestall any expected aggression. In reality it just annoyed Tilly but fortunately all she really did was shove newbie out of the way many times. She was mostly engrossed in playing in the sand bath, eating, and other normal gerbil activities. She frequently groomed newbie, and was able to groom her for gradually longer each time, but only the head, and newbie wasn't relaxed.

They didn't seem keen to settle down together. After 5 hours they finally settled down to sleep, in separate nests. I was exhausted by that point anyway, so I put them back in the split and went to bed.

I felt that they didn't seem at high risk of aggression, but they needed more time together to get more comfortable. So this afternoon I removed the divider again. At first they just sat at opposite corners doing nothing, and then I put a cardboard box in the tank and that seemed to snap them out of the awkwardness. They destroyed the box together, and after that just behaved like any other gerbil pair. There was no pestering from newbie, and no shoving from Tilly. They settled down in a nest together, and Tilly groomed a perfectly relaxed newbie all over. They've been together for 2.5 hours now and everything looks good. The new gerbil's breeder thinks I shouldn't leave them together overnight yet, so I won't, but I don't have anything to do tomorrow so I will able to have them together all day.

[LilyandDaisy]

[betty]

I honestly thought I had replied - I watched the videos twice each as well before commenting - no idea what happened there.

Either way - really glad they are looking so good together. I was interpreting the scuffles as uncertainty on both counts - just neither wanting to push anything at the early stages.

Can't really call what it might be like after that honeymoon period - but looking great so far.

[LilyandDaisy]

I think they were definitely both uncertain. Neither is really a very confident gerbil.

They've been together for 5.5 hours now. They've slept together a few times and occasionally also sit in opposite corners. Newbie is largely submissive to Tilly but has been testing the boundaries and being a bit annoying again tonight. Tilly gives her a shove if needed and leaves it at that. I doubt it's because she genuinely wants to be dominant but more likely to be resolving uncertainty and figuring out what she can get away with (she's already discovered that stealing food from Tilly is not on the list).

I will definitely put the split back in overnight, and have a few more extended introductions before trusting them overnight.

[LilyandDaisy]

Newbie continued to be rather cheeky and annoying throughout yesterday evening. By the time I put the divider back in for the night, I sensed that Tilly was getting quite weary and losing her resolve a bit. She was letting behaviour go that she probably shouldn't have. So although I was going to split them for the night anyway, it definitely seemed like a good idea to give Tilly a break and stop newbie from getting ideas.

At midday today I removed the divider again. Tilly set the tone by immediately grooming newbie. Newbie initially tried to act up again but then settled down and let Tilly groom her. They have now been sleeping together for an hour. However it is hot so it's hard to know how much is because newbie can't really be bothered to act up too much in this heat. I'll have to see what happens this evening.

[LilyandDaisy]

As I suspected could happen, newbie started acting up a bit again this evening, although not as much as last night, and she's calmed down now.

I've had an interesting discussion with her breeder and it seems like she might be something of a imposter! When she first met Tilly, she behaved in an incredibly submissive way, and it did occur to me at times that her displays of submission seemed ... over the top. For example, forcing her head underneath Tilly and dramatically rolling onto her back, while Tilly just sits there looking a bit confused. She did seem genuinely wary of Tilly at first and anxious to appease her. It was when she started to feel more comfortable with her, that the pushiness started. So she starts out appeasing Tilly by grovelling and fawning, and then tries to gradually push the boundaries. Either she actually wants to be dominant, or she just wants to gain a bit more power for herself even within the role of subordinate gerbil. The ultra-submissive stance was not her long term goal. She had such a sweet, submissive manner, I just thought that was her personality. I underestimated her.

She comes from a line of gerbils intentionally bred to be very flexible and agreeable with other gerbils, so it actually makes sense that she would alter her behaviour to fit the context in this way. When she needs to be appeasing, she can do that to perfection. But that's not necessarily who she really is as a gerbil. Of course it isn't an intentional attempt to deceive (I don't think gerbils are sophisticated enough for that?), just the way she knows to behave based on genetics and upbringing.

As for Tilly, she seems to be a defensive-aggressive type. When she feels threatened she can be aggressive but otherwise she's laid back. She'd probably be quite happy either as submissive or dominant, as long as she feels safe. She doesn't seem overly bothered by newbie's behaviour. She will push her away or give her a correctional groom if needed but not much else. If she were the ultra-dominant control freak type, we might have a big problem, but as it is I think she's willing to give some ground to newbie, as long as it doesn't compromise her safety.

Hopefully this pair will work out, as long as they can agree on some ground rules that suit them both, and newbie's aspirations aren't too high...

We've also discovered that she's a colourpoint slate, not a Burmese as thought. 

[betty]

Interesting about the breeding plan - did they say what parameters they were using to assess 'flexible' and how ig their gene pool was to play around with? I have started working on behavioural breeding with mine and there is so much scope there, I would love to find out more.

Anyway - fingers crossed that this works out - it almost sound slike you are describing 'mindfulness' in their thought process...

[LilyandDaisy]

Jul 13, 2022 9:37:36 GMT -8 betty said:

Interesting about the breeding plan - did they say what parameters they were using to assess 'flexible' and how ig their gene pool was to play around with? I have started working on behavioural breeding with mine and there is so much scope there, I would love to find out more.

Anyway - fingers crossed that this works out - it almost sound slike you are describing 'mindfulness' in their thought process...

They didn't say. They said this was the first time they had come across this kind of behaviour in this line, but it's a new line, so we're both very interested in the long term outcome.

Before she came to me, newbie was living in a trio. It sounds like she was at the bottom of the hierarchy and the other two were just starting to exclude her. So it was easy to assume she was just sweet, shrinking type, without any hidden depths.

I think you get a much more 3-dimensional picture of a gerbil's character when you see them living in different clans. When they live in the same clan their whole lives, you only really see one expression of their character. It's all very interesting.

The gerbils were split again last night but hopefully for the last time. I was worried about today because they were both due to be in heat. However so far they are just sitting next to each other looking both hot and in heat. Newbie has been very well-behaved today as well.

[betty]

Being in heat can sometimes work to your advantage - so let's hope that's the case...

[LilyandDaisy]

The madness is in full swing now. Lots of mounting from Tilly, but all still perfectly peaceful. I think it's actually better when both are in heat as they're both so absorbed in their own hormones they don't have time to get too wound up.

[LilyandDaisy]

They made it through their first full night together so I guess I can start to relax now.



Yesterday I was worried because would alternate between sleeping together and sleeping separately. I was 90% sure it because it was so hot, but it still worried me. Also due to the heat they hadn't made a proper nest. They were just sleeping on top of the bedding. Today it's been much cooler and they've been snuggled up together all day.