Best Size Enclosure for Breeding

[wendybird]

I have heard such differing opinions on enclosure size. From too small is stressful to too big leads to declanning. I've also heard that too small a space leads to a stressed female, but our mothers end up attacking their weaned even in a 40 gallon. My question for you is what are your opinions for a breeding family specifically, as far as enclosure size and how it effects the anxiety level of the mother.

[betty]

It does seem strange that you have had such bad luck with your females - regardless of enclosure size. And I wonder if it is more to do with your lines - although I am not sure if behaviour such as that can be inherited or learned?

I have only ever had one female who killed her pups, and this was only at a pre-weaned age - I haven't ever had a female attack or constantly berate her pups in any of my pairings - whatever the enclosure size. Some mums were much more shy/avoiding humans when they had pups, sure, but I wouldn't descibe any as anxious. What are you behaviours here?

I wonder if you have any more details on specific lines; whether the male is in/out/older/younger; pup sexes, ages and numbers when these occur - so we can see if there is a pattern anywhere in there or not.

And if you are planning any more pairings using these same parents or their offspring - perhaps you can experiment a bit and keep records of these things and observed behaviours?

[wendybird]

Thank you for your reply Betty! I so appreciate all the experience and knowledge in this forum.

Okay so our original pair (she had a litter before coming to me), the mother seemed aggressive with the babies (could be all gerbil moms? not sure since we don't have a lot to compare), but didn't harm them and didn't chase them off after weaning. She had multiple litters in the same tank. Her first litter was 2 but then she had 7, and 6. They weren't ALL in the 40 gallon at the same time as the babies were rehomed etc.

We bred two of her daughters. Both of them showed no aggression toward babies then suddenly turned on them at 5 weeks.

Female 1 Theo:
Litter 1 - 2 babies on her own because it was a surprise pregnancy, was not aggressive toward them
Litter 2 - 4 babies, at 5 weeks chasing and attacking babies, babies and father removed
Litter 3 - 7 babies, at 5 weeks started chasing then damaged a baby to the point of several places of bleeding. She was not pregnant again so I'm not sure what triggered this.
We bred her because she had the sweetest personality, up until the point of breeding her. Seems to have calmed down after.

Female 2 Honey Lemon:
Litter 1 - 7 babies with father to help, chased off babies AND father at weaning
Litter 2 - 8 babies born, 1 died at 2 weeks (freak accident, not mothers fault), seemed aggressive with babies but did not start attacking at weaning and even lived with the females for a month after weaning. She was stressed and losing fur, but recovered fully living on her own and then bonded to a 4 month old daughter and rehomed successfully.

Female 3 Sarai, totally unrelated to the above females, bred to a male from Theo litter 1:
Litter 1 - 6 babies born with father to help, was aggressive with pups at 3 weeks (my fault, I added a sand bath to the enclosure and she flipped out). Then when the new litter was born I removed the father and the pups to avoid a third litter and she started flipping out, I tried to put back in a female pup to be with her (literally 60 seconds after removal to confirm female) and she immediately chased and balled up with the baby.
Litter 2 - 7 babies born, 1 died shortly after birth seemed formed but small. She moves the litter constantly even thought she has a hide box. They are now 3 weeks old and she is neurotic about trying to keep them contained. Her enclosure is roughly 15-20 gallons right now.

This leads me want to try a litter in 10 gallons. The moms seems to really want to keep the babies close for a long time. Maybe this will ease some of the stress? Then at 3-4 weeks move them into a larger enclosure. I have also thought of making a tile false burrow (or whatever we call those in the tutorial) to see if the female will keep the babies in there instead of moving them all over.

Thoughts?

[betty]

So sorry wendybird - I don't always seem to re-find posts that I have commented on if i am short of time - so I do apologise once again for the delay - perhaps tag me going forward to help me come straight back to you as I will check them first.

Anyway - here are some comments (if they aren't too late already):

Theo: "We bred her because she had the sweetest personality, up until the point of breeding her. Seems to have calmed down after.
Maternal behaviour is totally different to the true character as the hormones are in control really - so we can't blame her for that. It an go the other way too - seemingly grumpy females can become wonderfully friendly once they are pregnant or are lactating. If her non-mother character is inherited - then this would seemingly be a great pet line (as there wouldn't be any hormones messing it up).

Honey Lemon (great name): "She was stressed and losing fur
This really isn't normal for a gerbil during pregnancy. Hair loss can certainly be triggered by a hormone imbalance so there is always that possible connection (thyroid issues included) and is usually lost symmetrically, but not always. I certainly wouldn't breed from this female again - or possibly her entire line (unless she was very special and you were keeping the first few generations yourself to make sure the line were totally healthy).

Sarai: "was aggressive with pups at 3 weeks (my fault, I added a sand bath to the enclosure and she flipped out)
It was not because you added the sand bath - my females used to accept anything in their enclosures - especially a sand bath. I think that perhaps the added item to an already super stressed out mom was the issue here.

"She moves the litter constantly even thought she has a hide box
Some mums are a bit more likly to move a litter - usually just the once or twice really over the first week or so. Only usually moving it later or more often if the nest feels unsafe - or they made it in a silly location in the first place. Certainly trying an underground chamber nest may well help a female feel more settled throughout the gestation/weaning period.

I certainly wouldn't re-pair a female that found the whole experience as stressful as that. It wouldn't be fair on her in the first instance - but most likely wasn't a great experience for the pups either - or you!

How is she now? Have the pups all survived the experience and did she manage to stay friends with one of the female pups for her retirement?


I wonder if it wouldn't be a bad idea to get a proven female from an AGS/NGS breeder and try a pairing with her. That way not only could you be assured that this pairing/weaning would be more representative of gerbils overall - but it could also find out if it is something environmental rather than genetic. If you find the right breeder nearby - you could also nab yourself a lifelong mentor to boot.

[wendybird]

betty

Thank you for your reply you are amazing!!!

I'll go over the things one at a time:

Honey Lemon was not losing fur while pregnant. She was losing fur when she was with her offspring after weaning, but she never chased them off.

Sarai has been a wonderful mom to this second litter, which is interesting since she is raising them alone. She moved them a lot while tiny and seemed to want to really keep them close but after their eyes opened it's been completely different. Her and the pups are doing wonderfully and they are actually our most socially adjusted and friendly litter to date! They are four weeks old so hopefully she will continue to tolerate them and be paired with a female pup.

I wish I could get a pup from a breeder! I'm in Utah and we have zero breeders. There are many in Colorado but that's quite a drive.

In the future I'm going to try a burrow and see if that helps. I had also already decided not to breed from the line that attacked their babies after that happened.

[betty]

Sorry, with Honey Lemon - I meant 'the whole period from conception to weaning' - I must use more appropriate words - although I am not sure what the word actually is for 'the period of having dependant offspring with you - both inside and out'? There must be a better word for that whole period (unless pre and post natal are the only two options - even though post could in theory be never-ending?)

As for finding a breeder - there are shows all over the US so it is possible that breeders will pass through your state to get a a show the other side. It might still be worth contacting the AGS to look at possibilities either way - I mean an email can't hurt.

Do let us know how the burrow goes - that would be an interesting post for sure showing the pros and cons and the results of course. If you build it differntly to the one in the example on here - would be great to share you thought process so it can be replicated if successful.