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Post by Markpd on Jun 22, 2023 8:53:32 GMT -8
Thanks guys And I'm going to glean info from this thread too.
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Post by Markpd on Dec 30, 2023 5:43:22 GMT -8
..... I am not sure my exact wording is ideal to describe this standing still pose I have seen - but generally - as said above - you want the older adult to really not react to anything the other one is doing. Other than the occasional one-foot pin down moment, you want to see nothing. No raised backs, hair standing on end, tail swishing or siding on - just extended 'waiting' (understanding the pup is a pup and so tolerating the excitement) or turning away/walking off (like they tell you to do when a dog jumps up at you for attention). I finally remembered to add this to the good/bad signs list! ***************************************************************** And I am in the process of expanding on the non traditional phased split.
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Post by Markpd on Jan 5, 2024 17:54:56 GMT -8
I think I've finished the guide?
Can anyone see something that needs changing or adding? (including any grammar issues).
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Post by LilyandDaisy on Jan 8, 2024 17:13:55 GMT -8
Markpd I'm curious to know what you, and others, think about the name of the "alternative" split method. I think we've been using various terms to refer to the same concept. Personally I have more or less settled on the term modified split tank method because it's a very broad and flexible concept and I think this term maintains that broadness and flexibility as it doesn't insist on any one way in which the split could be modified. There are various ways the method can be modified, including: - Length. It can be planned to last a longer period than a traditional split would e.g the owner can start out intending it to last at least 6 weeks instead of usual 2 weeks or so which people tend to hope for a traditional split to last - Larger enclosure - the space might or might not be reduced during the split - More/deeper bedding - which might or might not be reduced during the split - More enrichment, including the use of wheels - again, which might or might not be reduced over the course of the split - Modified swap schedule - possibly meaning no swaps at all to begin with, only one per day, or something else So there are many things a person can do differently, but the approach is totally flexible in the sense that the owner can pick and choose which of the above modifications they want to implement depending on their judgment. They might use a traditional split tank setup but delay starting swaps. Or they might still swap 3 times per day but use a larger split tank with deeper bedding. It might not even be phased at all, in the sense that an owner might choose to use a larger and more enriched tank throughout the whole process, which is not something I personally am likely to try, but I believe some have had success with a method like this. The only thing that really unifies all these different types of splits an owner might use is that they're all versions of the traditional split which have been modified in some way to better suit the gerbils or the owner. Personally I like the fact that the very existence of the term "modified split" lets owners know that it's possible to do a split in a non-traditional way, and that they're "allowed" to make modifications if they want to, whereas people might otherwise think that the split tank method is the split tank method, just one single way of doing it. But I'm interested to know what others think?
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Post by LilyandDaisy on Jan 8, 2024 17:16:28 GMT -8
I did spot a punctuation error here: *we'd advise to intro an adult to 1 pup, not more due, to increased risk of declanning when the pups grow up.I think the comma should be before due. Could you use a photo of a traditional split tank setup in the guide? I've got one set up at the moment so I could take a photo for you if you think it would be helpful. Also one thing I think is missing from the guide is more detail about swapping sides and the signs you want to see or don't want to see when you do that. Others can hopefully contribute their own opinions but I would say, Negative signs, in general order of severity, include: - Signs of overt aggression such as puffing up fur, chasing the other gerbil up and down the divider, tail wagging, teeth chattering, posturing (standing with the back arched), attempting to attack the other gerbil through the divider. Sometimes gerbils will bite the mesh just because they want to get back to the other side they were just on. This is a sign of anxiety but not necessarily aggression. - Destroying the other gerbil's nest - Scent marking - however personally when introducing an adult to a young pup I don't always worry about some minor scent marking from the adult as long as everything else looks good. betty would you agree with this? - Rearranging everything, and taking a long time to settle down - General agitation, anxiety and stress behaviour Positive signs are mostly the absence of the aforementioned negative signs. The ideal is for the gerbils once swapped to just take a moment to get their bearings, and then switch right back to whatever they were doing before, so they might settle down right away to eat or to sleep in the other gerbil's nest without lots of sniffing around or rearranging things. Sleeping side-by-side next to the divider is not essential as most gerbils seem to prefer to sleep in a corner of the tank. They also shouldn't be overly reactionary to whatever the gerbil on the other side is doing. Ideally their behaviour would mirror how bonded gerbils in a stable clan interact, which is that they mostly do their own thing side-by-side in close proximity to each other without feeling the need to be constantly sniffing each other and interacting. From time to time they will check in with each other by touching noses, and sometimes also having more extended periods of grooming. Relaxed gerbils in a split also tend to behave like this. They mostly do their own thing without paying much attention to what the other gerbil is doing. If they meet at the mesh, they will usually just touch noses and move on, and sometimes might groom through the mesh, but they're not constantly having extended sniffing sessions. Sniffing is an investigative behaviour in gerbils so while it's completely normal earlier in the split, by the time an introduction is being considered, they really need to be at the point where the other gerbil is "old news" and just not that interesting. Bonded gerbils in a stable clan will typically only sniff each other intensely when they have been separated for a while, or when a gerbil behaves in a way which is unexpected or disliked by the other gerbil. The overall picture should be one where the gerbils are on friendly terms but not intensely interested in one another, nor seem to be consider each other a threat. In the same way as you might nod and smile at your neighbour whenever you meet at the garden fence, but if you don't feel that they're a threat or annoyance in any way, you probably don't feel the need to have regular, intense discussions about who they are and where they come from and what they're doing every time you meet.
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Post by betty on Jan 11, 2024 12:42:57 GMT -8
Modified Split Tank - I like the use of this phrase because it sort of enhances the fact that gerbils really are safer being introduced with some kind of structured introduction (rather than the risky vanilla-slash-bathtub experiences) we sometimes see talked about. It also hints at the fact that you are changing (temporarily) just one small part of it, while keeping the main jist of the intense effort leading up to the actual first face-to-face - like having a longer run up; starting off larger; or starting off distracted. It is only modified in the early weeks - the end days/hours are still the same because that is the most important part for bonding.
I did used to to use the phrase 'non-traditional' a lot because this often included all the different attempts people made either with different set-ups, different scents and random or groups of individuals - some apparently successfully. So by clumping ALL alternative methods under the 'non-tradional' heading allowed for there to be a clear distinction between those methods most recommended and most universally successful (as with what I think we are calling 'modified' above) - and all the other ways people could attempt it depending on their resources, their influences and their own choices. Because people can and do seemingly pair up gerbils using all sorts of nail-biting ways (at least short term) I didn't want to write them off, but I didn't want them to appear to be being recommended.
Although, when you get down to the individual wording - it can be quite tricky not to keep using the same ones to mean slightly different things (the number of times I have have had to edit the words just in this short post already!)
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Post by betty on Jan 11, 2024 13:00:11 GMT -8
- Scent marking - however personally when introducing an adult to a young pup I don't always worry about some minor scent marking from the adult as long as everything else looks good. betty would you agree with this?
Absolutely - males in particular will be all over a pup rubbing them and humping them depending on how much time has passed since that pup left their mum/sisters. Females do too of course, but I haven't seen it as often. Generally though if they are humping and rubbing or just laying on top of a pup but looking generally disinterested in the pup itself, this is all good. If the pup is young enough, it should just let them rather than get annoyed - this is why the younger the better with a pup (older pups won't like it as much). If the adult can be easily distracted in the moment (say if you called them, or put something new in front of them) this is good. They may be returning to them over and over for the first few hours- and this can be quite normal. But soon enough, their own smell overwhelms the pup and so they should become less interesting.
- Rearranging everything, and taking a long time to settle down - General agitation, anxiety and stress behaviour
These signs are quite common - I found more so in teenage gerbils. They can get really quite aggitated and frustrated. I have had one young female who quite injured herself with chewing the mesh and hanging off the mesh in the early days - she just wasn't ready for the overall confinement. It isn't that they won't bond with the other gerbil - they just don't have the brain space for bonding at that time - they are uber-stressed. I suppose it is like being confined in a small space with your favorite movie hearthrob - sounds perfect - but if it was a lift, dangling on a cable - you would be uber-stressed - so the last thing you would be thinking about is talking about getting a puppy or what colour to paint the walls...
Totally agree with Lily&Daisy about the sniffing - they need to be almost nonchalant with each other at the point of introduction. I'm here, you're there, it's all fine, ooh - cardboard.
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Post by Markpd on Jan 13, 2024 8:29:55 GMT -8
Great info L&D and betty Yep, I like the term modified split tank method better too, still highlighting the fact they are separated in one tank (for much of it) but also allowing for variation (and it's a less cumbersome phrase! ). I'll alter the title to match. And yep, that coma was in the wrong place, now fixed, thanks . And yea you're right L&D, advise as at what point to split is virtually entirely missing! (aside from typical time durations). I don't know how I missed that! lol (although post swap good and bad signs are listed already in the quote of ps25's thread). I think I'll just copy and paste much of your post! (and link to your and betty's post). Re photo, yes that'd be good thanks, saves me hunting around for one
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Post by LilyandDaisy on Jan 13, 2024 10:47:36 GMT -8
Here is a photo of a traditional split tank. This is a 60x30x30cm tank. They have just inch or two of bedding, a couple of sticks to chew, water bottles and scattered food.
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Post by Markpd on Jan 20, 2024 5:49:15 GMT -8
Added a load of updates, your photo above L&D, thanks for that . Also added a short intro to the intro! (mostly pinched from the old one) and added links to making a divider (including yours L&D). And a little tidying here and there. As for the old guide, it includes an alternative divider build, so rather than moving it to the behaviour section and unlocking to oblivion (lol), I propose that I alter the title to - "The Split Tank: How to Build a Divider" and move it to the DIY guide - any objections? To me, looking at the new guide now, it looks complete and ready for deployment, but can anyone see anything that could be improved?
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Post by Markpd on Jan 30, 2024 13:02:53 GMT -8
Hello? Made it an announcement to get some (more) feedback.
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Post by betty on Feb 4, 2024 11:11:06 GMT -8
Sorry, been super busy this week - will try to have a good read tomorrow after work and give some feedback on it.
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Post by Markpd on Mar 12, 2024 11:38:30 GMT -8
TJ's Rodent Ranch any thoughts on our guide here? Rumour has it that you've had a few gerbils , so must have some experience?
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Post by TJ's Rodent Ranch on Mar 12, 2024 17:55:16 GMT -8
Hmm, I'm not sure I have much to add to this. It's a really great thread for sure, I think it's really helpful and also necessary for anyone doing a split, and different ways to do one.
I think all I can add is the method that I usually use when conducting a split. I like to give them a little more bedding than in a traditional split (3-4 inches) I've found it allows them to dig a little bit to relieve some stress, or to make deeper nests if it makes them more comfortable. I also give them one structure (always very small, never elaborate). I leave them like this for about a week and then swap them every three to four days. Besides this, every day I mix bedding into each gerbil's side from the opposite side. Of course, they get lots of cardboard to chew, and I put the food close to the barrier to encourage eating closer together. I haven't had any problems with doing this, and intro them to each other within two months at the longest. When I do intro them, I like to mix the bedding around to discourage them from having a scent line that stakes certain sections of the tank 'their' territory.
I don't know if this is particularly helpful, but I thought it might be useful to contribute. I think that pretty much all the bases are covered here already. Anyway, I'm posting this after a pretty crazy day, so I might come back tomorrow and edit it since my brain is a little lopsided right now, but I hope it made some sense, lol.
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Post by Markpd on Mar 15, 2024 18:05:26 GMT -8
Yea makes sense, thanks, and yes it's useful to know your variation of the method
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I'm going to remove the draft tag now, but if something more needs to be added I can still edit it
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