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Post by icecontroller2529 on Jan 25, 2023 2:45:30 GMT -8
Hello,
we need help in an acute stressful situation. We’ve got two young male gerbils here, brothers. They seemed to be getting on well, but this morning it seemed to be going wrong, or at least there is some kind of escalation happening.
The gerbils have been running in the wheel all night, from midnight to about 8 am. Then my husband noticed that there was a lot of tension. I had gotten up by that point, so I hadn’t noticed (the gerbils are in the bedroom). After running all night, instead of resting, the gerbils were very active, digging frantically and there was even chasing going on.
Watching them, I noticed that the dominant gerbil, Adam, was showing very dominant and territorial behaviour. The other one, Rob, was obviously scared. He had created a hiding place under some hay in the middle of the gerbilarium. Adam was circling around that area, as if making sure Rob wouldn’t come out. I saw some serious chasing at first the moment Rob left his hay spot, but later Rob wouldn’t come out of his hiding place any more. Now, finally, they seem to be sleeping – Rob in his hay hide and Adam in a corner of the tank.
Some background information:
The gerbils are 12 weeks old now. We know they are brothers. They are very tame and love climbing up my arm, especially Rob. When we got them, it was instantly clear that Adam was the dominant one and Rob was submissive. The day we got them, they seemed stressed about the new environment, which probably increased their dominant/submissive behaviour. Rob was rolling on this back the moment Adam came closer.
After the initial stress, they seemed to be getting on well. They were sitting next to each other while eating, they were playing together. There was regular box fighting and grooming, both gerbils alternately being the one who groomed and the one being groomed. It all seemed peaceful to me. I’m too unexperienced to call it “normal”, but maybe it was normal.
My husband and I were very careful to avoid previous mistakes. With our first gerbils, things had gone terribly wrong. So this time, we did everything differently:
- The gerbils had restricted access to their tank in the beginning. We used a divider to limit their space, and we slowly added more space by moving the divider a bit further week by week. They never seemed to claim areas as their territory. They slept together in the same spots.
- They didn’t get many objects to get territorial over. At first, they only had a wooden bridge under the bedding, as a “house”. Then, we also put in a plateau on which we placed a sand bath. Next, we alternated the sand bath with a wheel. All the time, they had a lot of toys that didn’t encourage territorial behaviour: wooden sticks, toilet rolls, tissue.
- There were and are no areas that are only accessible via a small bridge or so, so they can’t get territorial and deny the other one entry.
Everything seemed to be okay. They love the wheel, preferring to run at night. Sleeping most of the day. They seemed relaxed and happy. Until this morning.
So far, my action has been:
- I took out a lot of their bedding material and pushed the divider back quite a bit so that they have a smaller area.
- I took out all objects – the plateau, the wheel, even the “house” bridge.
- I mixed up the wood shavings in the “house” area, hoping to prevent Adam from feeling territorial about this area.
What do you guys think about this situation? Can gerbils declan at such a young age? Is this normal puberty behaviour, are they just establishing their hierarchy? Will they calm down? It feels like they are stuck at the moment, Rob is completely intimidated and Adam is being very dominant and territorial. It worries me that they are not sleeping together now.
What can we do? Any advice is highly appreciated.
I want to apologise for not being active on the forum any more. Whenever I come here, I’m painfully reminded of the bad times with our first gerbils, and then I leave again. Sorry!
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Post by icecontroller2529 on Jan 25, 2023 3:32:41 GMT -8
Update:
It escalated.
I went back to them after writing this text. Adam was circling Robs hay place like a shark, getting closer and closer. Finally, he chose Rob out of his hide. Serious chasing round the tank. Rob jumped onto the divider in panic. That was the moment it seemed clear to me we couldn’t go on like this.
We tried what I was so scared of because of our earlier experience: Put them into a travelling box with some of their bedding to have them on really small space. It didn’t work. Adam was chasing and fighting Rob. We had to separate them. Now, they are sitting on each side of the divider in their tank, both still in the bedding with their smell.
It has escalated completely and they are separated now. I’m scared. What can we do?
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Post by Markpd on Jan 25, 2023 13:29:47 GMT -8
Hi again, sorry to see you back due to more woes! The only intro method recommended here is the split intro method (I think you're familiar with it?), you've got the starters of that anyway, but I'd say for now just leave them divided (without swapping them) until they've calmed down. And unless/until a more experienced member than me says otherwise, leave it at least a week after that point before you start swapping them. PS Btw, sorry again for not replying to all of your emails , their is at least 2 that I still want to reply too! lol PPS Avon died on boxing day
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Post by LilyandDaisy on Jan 25, 2023 15:17:35 GMT -8
If this all happened over the course of a morning, I wonder if there was some kind of trigger, like a new smell?
I agree with the above, to keep them divided as they are for at least a week. Longer probably wouldn't hurt. After that you could start swapping sides etc to attempt a reintroduction.
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Post by iamplankton on Jan 26, 2023 0:13:28 GMT -8
Are you able to post a picture of their setup at all in case we can spot anything to possibly help also?
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Post by icecontroller2529 on Jan 26, 2023 8:07:47 GMT -8
Reaction and Update
Thank you so much for your answers, Mark and Lily and Daisy! I was surprised both of you saw the next step in re-introducing the gerbils. That had never even crossed our minds. We were thinking about having to give one of them or both away. We thought they would never be able to be together again. Now, we will follow your advice and first keep them apart, but not swap them for at least a week. After that … I’m not sure. Our experience with the split tank method and introduction is very negative. We’re both traumatised and don’t consider ourselves capable of trying this ourselves right now. We’re trying to find somebody else to do it for us. I’m worried we won’t find anybody and I’m worried about the gerbils either way, based on my experience. It always went wrong when we tried the split introduction ourselves, and the one time we went to a breeder for help, a gerbil died when the experienced breeder introduced the gerbils. So this is scary. As for this question, I quote: Well, first I should mention that there might have been signs before which we didn’t see, due to lack of experience. That being said, we have come to the conclusion that it might have been territorial behaviour over the wheel. The gerbils love the wheel. It never seemed like one was keeping the other from using it, but again, maybe we didn’t notice smaller signs of aggression. Both gerbils were enthusiastic about running, they loved the wheel from day one. The night before the declan, they had been running from midnight until the next morning which seems a bit much too me. Could they have pushed themselves into something that way? Considering new smells, the only thing that was new was a new kind of hay they had. Hay from a different shop than normal. Not sure whether different hay triggers a strong reaction. Off topic: Mark, I’m so sorry about Avon! Regarding those mails, don’t worry about it
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Post by icecontroller2529 on Jan 26, 2023 8:14:13 GMT -8
Are you able to post a picture of their setup at all in case we can spot anything to possibly help also? I still haven't figured out how to post pictures
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Post by iamplankton on Jan 26, 2023 8:48:12 GMT -8
Are you able to post a picture of their setup at all in case we can spot anything to possibly help also? I still haven't figured out how to post pictures There’s a pinned post at the top of this forum trail for Imgur. I personally use postimages.org/
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Post by Markpd on Jan 28, 2023 7:14:34 GMT -8
Are you able to post a picture of their setup at all in case we can spot anything to possibly help also? I still haven't figured out how to post pictures See the link in my sig (works for PCs, apparently the buttons aren't available for the mobile version). If they were older gerbils and had failed the split intro method used here, then you could consider a permanent split (assuming they're ok living side by side). But seeing as their so young, I would say it's too early to give up. See how they do as you swap them side to side over the next 1-2 weeks. If I recall correctly, your breeder intro'd your previous gerbils in a small carrier with a little water? Anyway, it sounded very stressful for them (I think you said so too?), definitely not a recommended way of doing it, even if it is a method widely used by breeders in your country.
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Post by icecontroller2529 on Jan 28, 2023 10:50:45 GMT -8
If they were older gerbils and had failed the split intro method used here, then you could consider a permanent split (assuming they're ok living side by side). But seeing as their so young, I would say it's too early to give up. See how they do as you swap them side to side over the next 1-2 weeks. If I recall correctly, your breeder intro'd your previous gerbils in a small carrier with a little water? Anyway, it sounded very stressful for them (I think you said so too?), definitely not a recommended way of doing it, even if it is a method widely used by breeders in your country. Thanks for again confirming there is still a chance for them. Personally, I could imagine a permanent split situation, certainly after your experience with Blake and Avon. My husband is not in favour of this solution, though. We'll see how it all goes. You remember correctly about the Dutch method. I wrote more about it in my update which I'm going to post in a moment.
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Post by icecontroller2529 on Jan 28, 2023 10:55:12 GMT -8
Update
It’s been two days now since our 12 week old boys declanned. They’ve been living apart since, in their usual tank but with a divider between them. The first night I did not sleep at all. Rob, the submissive one, found a way of climbing over to Adam’s side. He kept climbing to his brother, so I spent the night putting him back to his own side. The next day, we built something to make it safer. They are each on a different side now, and they seem to be okay but Rob seems a bit depressed, I think he misses his brother.
We tried to find somebody to do the split introduction attempt for us, but failed. So, if you guys are right and it’s not necessarily over for them yet, then we have two options: Try a split introduction ourselves or try to find new homes for the gerbils.
We made our decision. We are going to try to re-introduce Rob and Adam. If it fails, I want to keep Rob and try to introduce him to a baby at some point.
Our previous experience with introductions has been traumatising, so it’s going to be tough. But I am determined to try again and use my former experience to do it better this time (hopefully). This is my plan:
- We are going to have somebody build a split for us (we are not very crafty ourselves), following instructions from the internet.
- We are going to wait a week or so, like you suggested, and then start the split period
- We are not going to do it the Dutch way. Everybody in this country seems to think it’s the best and only method, but we are not going to do it for the following reasons:
1. I’m not sure about the water part. I see the point of it, but I’m not sure it’s not too stressful for the gerbils. We’re not going to do this.
2. Far worse and definitely extremely stressful: The tiny split cage drove our earlier gerbils crazy. I cannot imagine that the animals are open for bonding with another animal under such enormous stress. This time, we are going to give them more room.
3. This time, I want to listen to the gerbils, or to the gut feeling I have about them. If the gerbils don’t seem to show interest in each other in a positive way, then I won’t have them together. Earlier, we followed the instructions exactly. So we put the gerbils together after a week no matter what, and if it went wrong, after a another week again. This time, I won’t remove the split before they show clear signs of mutual affection. No matter how long it takes, I’m not going to introduce them too early.
- Also, the moment I get the feeling that there is aggression, I’m going to end the introduction attempt.
- In general, I have come to the conclusion that I will never have gerbils with only one wheel again. If Rob and Adam can be re-united, they will have two wheels and two water bottles in their enclosure.
That’s the plan right now. I hope all will go well.
I will keep you updated. Any advice is welcome.
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Post by LilyandDaisy on Jan 28, 2023 11:33:13 GMT -8
There is an alternative to the typical small tank split method where you start with a larger tank, set it up like a normal tank with deep bedding, enrichment etc, and then just let the gerbils side-by-side for a while without even swapping sides. Later on you start swapping sides, gradually reducing bedding, enrichment and space and eventually attempting an introduction, but the whole process is much slower. It might be a good option in this situation and especially with your previous bad experiences. It gives the gerbils some time to calm down from the declan as well.
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Post by icecontroller2529 on Jan 29, 2023 3:37:21 GMT -8
There is an alternative to the typical small tank split method where you start with a larger tank, set it up like a normal tank with deep bedding, enrichment etc, and then just let the gerbils side-by-side for a while without even swapping sides. Later on you start swapping sides, gradually reducing bedding, enrichment and space and eventually attempting an introduction, but the whole process is much slower. It might be a good option in this situation and especially with your previous bad experiences. It gives the gerbils some time to calm down from the declan as well. That sounds like an ideal method to me! Who cares if it takes more time if the gerbils are less stressed? This is what I'm going to do. Thanks for your reaction, Lily and Daisy. Have you done it this way? Have you tried out many different methods?
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Post by LilyandDaisy on Jan 29, 2023 13:39:10 GMT -8
There is an alternative to the typical small tank split method where you start with a larger tank, set it up like a normal tank with deep bedding, enrichment etc, and then just let the gerbils side-by-side for a while without even swapping sides. Later on you start swapping sides, gradually reducing bedding, enrichment and space and eventually attempting an introduction, but the whole process is much slower. It might be a good option in this situation and especially with your previous bad experiences. It gives the gerbils some time to calm down from the declan as well. That sounds like an ideal method to me! Who cares if it takes more time if the gerbils are less stressed? This is what I'm going to do. Thanks for your reaction, Lily and Daisy. Have you done it this way? Have you tried out many different methods? I haven't ever reintroduced gerbils but I have done the "slow split" when introducing two adult females (Tilly and Wispa) as Tilly had previously reacted badly to the small, bare split tank. She was increasingly stressed and aggressive in the small split tank.. She was still aggressive at the beginning of the slow split but she calmed down and I think the extra space and enrichment might have helped with that. The introduction took 5 weeks and the gerbils bonded really well. Even though Tilly was so aggressive in the beginning, by the final introduction it was her trying to make friends with Wispa, while Wispa was a little unsure at first but came around.
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Post by icecontroller2529 on Feb 1, 2023 9:26:02 GMT -8
I haven't ever reintroduced gerbils but I have done the "slow split" when introducing two adult females (Tilly and Wispa) as Tilly had previously reacted badly to the small, bare split tank. She was increasingly stressed and aggressive in the small split tank.. She was still aggressive at the beginning of the slow split but she calmed down and I think the extra space and enrichment might have helped with that. The introduction took 5 weeks and the gerbils bonded really well. Even though Tilly was so aggressive in the beginning, by the final introduction it was her trying to make friends with Wispa, while Wispa was a little unsure at first but came around. I hope the first sentence will remain valid, considering the current situation. Thank you for sharing your experience, this was very interesting to read. I cannot imagine that gerbils could ever relax in small tanks. I've only seen gerbils who were understandably distressed, and this can't be a good basis for a gerbil to bond with another gerbil? But it seems to work for others, so ... well. I'm going to type another update about my boys.
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