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Post by TJ's Rodent Ranch on Jan 22, 2024 18:59:38 GMT -8
Okay, news! I spent about three to four hours reading, re-reading, and smashing into tiny processable bits of Shooting Star's Genetics page. It was extremely helpful. So I think I have a little better understanding. I'm glad you haven't replied to my last one yet because it may have been a waste of time, now that Shooting Star has answered many of those questions! So Poppy is Black:
aa C* D* E* P* Uw* - a plain run of the mill Black gerbil gene listSo (just going over the very basis, so I make sure I'm not misunderstanding anything that I'd have to relearn later). So Poppy is the very base color of gerbils on the Non-Agouti side. Meaning that the only gene that really needs to be present is aa? If we know she had a cp silver nutmeg parent - she will certainly inherit a single copy of any double-recessive genes - because there is nothing else to inherit. So being a nutmeg - her dad has 2 tiny e genes - so she will get one of those:
aa C* D* Ee P* Uw* - a black gerbil with any type of nutmeg for a parent.So she has inherited the small e, and that means she carries the ability to have nutmeg babies, but because of the dominant E masking it, you don't see the nutmeg in her coat? This, I assume, is what enabled her to have nutmeg babies. Also, a question for this one. Why is there nothing else for her to inherit? I figured it probably had something to do with her dominant genes canceling out his, and so not inheriting any, but I'm don't know. aa Ccchm D* Ee P* Uwuwd - a black gerbil with any colorpoint nutmeg-type greyed gerbil for a parent. This Black gerbil (Poppy) has the potential to create almost all the common dark-eyed gerbil colors (with the right partner).Where does the Uwuwd gene show through? Is that the Underwhite dense gene? Since it has a dominant allele with it (if I'm using that word right) than is it that the dominant allele blocks off from seeing that in her coat, otherwise she would have been diluted? That seems to be about all, hopefully some of it was right!
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Post by betty on Jan 23, 2024 5:43:07 GMT -8
aa C* D* E* P* Uw* - a plain run of the mill Black gerbil gene list
So (just going over the very basis, so I make sure I'm not misunderstanding anything that I'd have to relearn later). So Poppy is the very base color of gerbils on the Non-Agouti side. Meaning that the only gene that really needs to be present is aa?
Yes. Black is the exact opposite/twin of Agouti, plus the recessives. This is a really helpful concept to know as there are two basic columns/lists of gerbil colours- all have a twin either A* or aa. Great starting point for learning colours and genes. ___________________________
aa C* D* Ee P* Uw* - a black gerbil with any type of nutmeg for a parent.
So she has inherited the small e, and that means she carries the ability to have nutmeg babies (YES) but because of the dominant E masking it, you don't see the nutmeg in her coat? (MASKING IS A GREAT WAY TO DECSRIBE IT*) This, I assume, is what enabled her to have nutmeg babies. (YES - HER e CAN'T BE SEEN UNTIL IT PAIRS UP WITH ANOTHER e DURING CONCEPTION).
*We write their genes as the two symbols side by side for simplicity - and we always write a dominant gene (if there is one) on the left (so we write it first) as it is this gene, when present, that will always be the thing that is determining the colour showing on the outside of the gerbil.
***Back soon for the rest.
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Post by betty on Jan 23, 2024 9:36:02 GMT -8
aa C* D* Ee P* Uw* - a black gerbil with any type of nutmeg for a parent.
Also, a question for this one. Why is there nothing else for her to inherit? I figured it probably had something to do with her dominant genes canceling out his, and so not inheriting any, but I'm don't know.
I was adding one gene at a time to simplify it - but gerbils can only for sure 100% inherit a recessive gene from a parent if they themselves are recessive in that thing. They MAY inherit a recessive gene from a parent with only one of that particular recessive gene, but you can't put it into their written gene code plan because it isn't confirmable at all (it would only be 50/50 as to whether they have it and so no point putting it in writing at this point). Her mum is the same colour as her - so has no double-recessives to pass on.
A gerbil who is a cp silver nutmeg (aa cchmcchm ee uwduwd) has got 4 sets of recessive genes (all shown seperately below) - so for sure 100% will pass on all of those to their offspring: so Poppy will have received an:
'a' from the non-agouti partof her dad (which we can see as she is physically (non-agouti) black); 'cchm' from the cp part of her dad (which is a (Burmese) cp gene that we can't see but which she can pass on); 'e' from the 'nutmeg' part of her dad (which we can't see in her - but which she can pass on to her pups); 'uwd' from the 'diluted grey' part of her dad (which we can't see but which she can pass on to her pups).
These all added together make her written gene code: aa Ccchm D* Ee P* Uwuwd. All the first-shown letters or double recessives are what make her HER color, and all the second shown letters are extras that we know about based on her parents colors OR the colors of her pups. All the remaining *sare where we have no facts to fill in the hidden letters.
I assume you got your answer elsewhere - but the second-shown letters don't have to be little letters - they are just as likely to be big letters - that is why we use the * instead. Double big letters (double-dominant genes) are very important for breeding as they can eliminate certain colours from your lines, for example if you don't want Pink-Eyed Whites (PEWs) in your colorpoint lines - you need (ideally) both your parents to be PP (double-dominant) for dark-eyes.
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Post by betty on Jan 23, 2024 10:19:10 GMT -8
aa Ccchm D* Ee P* Uwuwd - a black gerbil with any colorpoint nutmeg-type greyed gerbil for a parent. This Black gerbil (Poppy) has the potential to create almost all the common dark-eyed gerbil colors (with the right partner).
Where does the Uwuwd gene show through? Is that the Underwhite dense gene? Since it has a dominant allele with it (if I'm using that word right) than is it that the dominant allele blocks off from seeing that in her coat, otherwise she would have been diluted?
Yes. As with all genetic notations - the allele/gene showed written as a capital/uppercase letter is 'dominant' in the simplest sense - it pushes to the front first. The instructions for the outside of a gerbil could be compared (very simply) to a crane I suppose. The crane grabber is set very high - so as it swings along your gene code it can only grab the tallest letters - so if it swung over the alleles/genes: Aa - then it could only grab the A - and so it would make a gerbil that had an agouti-base colour.
As the crane swung again over to the under white genes (Uw and uwd) it would only be able to grab the tallest one - the dominant one (Uw) and the effects of this 'stay normal' gene were the only ones that could be seen. The gerbil it was making would not show the effects of the underwhite gene on their coat and so it would stay 'normal-colored' - which is why Poppy is still just Black.
If the gerbil was your dad here - and he only had two little ones (uwduwd), when the crane went over there wouldn't be a dominant one to pick up - and so it wouldn't be able to put the dominant one into the gerbil it was making (which would leave the coat hair as it was). It will be missing the instructions to make it normal colored - and because it is missing the 'stay normal' instruction - it now shows something different (aka - greyed out hair)*.
Finally: sometimes the hidden recessive gene can actually be 'seen' to have an effect on the dominant gene and can dilute it or change its visual effect. This is because it can still have a bit of a residual jiggery-pokery.
It can't be known for sure to be written in our codes based on this alone (as many things can change a coats intensity - like spotting) - but it you are breeding gerbils for color/show - you will soon start to eliminate recessive genes that fade the color for example, or start to add those hidden recessives which may increase intensity maybe. There is a lot of info on the actions of recessives in mice coat colors which goes into a lot more detail because they are super obsessed with it.
Extra info only - just for some hair shaft nerd information ________________________________ * Shooting Stars coat color info shows how the hair shafts are formed/filled and how each gene is simply affecting how the individual hairs are colored in. For example (again, in simple terms), the standard agouti hair has three color layers (grey at the base;ginger in the middle;black on the tip). Each one of those three parts occupies a set space on the hair - like hoods or sleeves - and can be switched on or off by various genes. The hair doesn't get any shorter or longer with these changes, these colors just either expand or disappear depending on the genes actions.
For example (taking simply an Agouti and a Black gerbil) the aa set of genes together physically switch off/remove the ginger and silver parts - leaving only the black parts all the way down (aka a black gerbil).
Similarly (taking an Agouti and an Argente) a set of pp recessives together switch off/remove the black tips of the hairs and leave only the ginger part on the top and the grey/silver part underneath. It is this remaining silver undercoat that helps you tell apart the two main groups of ginger gerbils. An Argente coat will part to show silver fur (which is where it gets its name from because: argent = silver) - but a Honey or Nutmeg/Saffron coat doesn't show the silver underneath (because the presence of the double ee recessives expands the ginger part of the hair soooooo far that it blocks out the silver - which is why (nerdily) it is called the 'extension of yellow' gene - ie - where it gets its E from)).
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Post by TJ's Rodent Ranch on Jan 23, 2024 13:19:04 GMT -8
Okay great, that makes a lot of sense now! Before it felt like a foreign language, and now it feels like I can speak in it, but not fluently. It definitely has become rather addictive, haha. I've been experimenting with the different gerbils I have and trying to lay out their nomenclatures. I've been experimenting on my gerbil Sesame (who is now paired with Zit). Sesame's mom was Burmese, and his dad was CP silver nutmeg. Also, who he's paired with. I've been wondering what kind of babies they might have. Zit's parents are Black and Honeycream. So maybe it would go something like this?
Sesame- Burmese: aa cchmcchm D* Ee Uwuwd
I'm not sure about Zit's because I don't really know how to wright out a Honeycream, and all I know for sure about her is that she's on the aa side.
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Post by betty on Jan 23, 2024 16:39:13 GMT -8
Perfect - that is the code for a Burmese (just add in the P*for the dark eyes)
*There is the little symbol up the top there (to the right of the bold/italics/underline/strikethrough) that lets you put the tiny letters in the air after the genes so your cchm changes to cchm - although always type something (or add a space) after the words you are about to shrink otherwise everything after those letters is also shrunken .
We talked about the Honey Cream before, which can be several different gene groupings depending on what she actually is (the term Honey Cream isn't actually a colour per se - as a honey cream can actually be 4 different colors (mainly just 2) and the cream is only brought on by the spotting (which we know doesn't count towards the gene color anyway).
So a Dark-Eyed Honey (DEH) is: A* ee P* and a Red-Eyed Honey (REH) is: A* ee pp
A Nutmeg is a DEH aa twin, so: aa ee P* A red-eyed Nutmeg is a Saffon: aa ee pp
These are your possible genes for a Honey Cream, so if we don't know which one Zit is, then we can only say that they are:
ee P* - if she has dark eyes ee pp - if she has red eyes
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Post by TJ's Rodent Ranch on Jan 23, 2024 18:48:39 GMT -8
Hm, okay. And thank you for the tiny letter advice! I've been looking for that.
Her eyes are black, so would it be something like this?
aa C* D* ee PP
I'm not sure exactly how the Uw gene works quite yet, it's a bit confusing, since both C, D, and Uw can dilute the coat. So I'm not sure, but I think Zit would probably have Uw?
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Post by betty on Jan 23, 2024 19:23:55 GMT -8
Yep perfect- that code would make her a Nutmeg (who can't ever have pink-eyed offspring).
The Uw gene works the same as all the others in terms of the nomenclature- so for your full code above you would need to add the Uw* at the end (to show that she isn't a silver nutmeg).
However, if you meant you aren't sure how it works on the coat color, then that is totally seperate to the coding. Some coat colours will look slightly lighter than their normal color when there is a recessive gene hiding- but they will still certainly be 100% identifiable as their original gene color and would still be called that original color.
So a Nutmeg with normal coat color would be written as aaee (as in it is only these 2 genes it requires) A Nutmeg that was a bit paler than usual would still be written as only aaee
Even if this paler one was written in full as: aa C* D* ee PP Uwuwd - she would still be called a Nutmeg genetically. She may also only look paler because she was spotted too - so you wouldn't 100% know which gene was acting on her coat - you would only know for sure that she carried uwd when she produced a uwduwd pup.
If she had both recessives at the end herself (uwduwd) - she would become a Silver Nutmeg instead - because the effect of BOTH underwhited genes would grey out all the ginger from the hairs.
If a gerbil is a very pale color (like PEW, BEW or REW) and you don't know their Uw status, you just use double **. That way everyone knows that we have no idea what is there so they can take that into account with their gene calculations.
You can use the double ** for any gene you don't know for sure - and with the colors listed above, sometimes all you have is their cp statusandeye color - the rest can't be know without family histories or selective breeding:
PEW: ** c*c* ** ** pp ** REW: ** chch ** ** P* ** BEW: ** c*c* ** ee P* **
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Post by TJ's Rodent Ranch on Jan 23, 2024 20:58:58 GMT -8
Okay, I think I'm starting to understand. So what sets apart a Nutmeg from a Honeycream? Are they genetically identical, but in real life look different? It's good to know that she doesn't have red eyes, however, otherwise it could turn all the pups into REW (If I got this right) since the Burmese has two Cchm
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Post by betty on Jan 24, 2024 0:51:58 GMT -8
Okay, I think I'm starting to understand.
It is tricky sometimes when you first start to gather all the data as often there are things that try to catch you out like different gene codes under animals that are called the same color - because that is just for those individual animals themselves (as many colours on the outside can have very different gene codes on the inside). That is why the 'short version' is best for just outside every day colors,and the longer codes used for individual animals. The short code can still be pulled out of the long individual codes, and the short codes can be rewritten in long - so it is just a matter of learning what is essential and what isn't.
So what sets apart a Nutmeg from a Honeycream? Are they genetically identical, but in real life look different?
Exactly - a nutmeg is just the gene color that is expressed with the genes aa and ee together in one animal. And a Honey Cream is just an umbrella term used to describe an e*e* gerbil whose spotting gene has made them create more white hair than they would have done with just spotting alone. The e gene just every so often has this effect of temporarily cancelling out more hair pigments than usual. However, even an extreme-white Nutmeg would still genetically just be a Nutmeg - even if it only had the traditional ginger color on a tiny patch on their rump.
So they are just a normal nutmeg underneath all that lovely soft pale-gingery fur. Quite often pups have the most white and they gradually turn back more ginger with every molt. It is often just a pup glitch.
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Post by betty on Jan 24, 2024 5:41:59 GMT -8
It's good to know that she doesn't have red eyes, however, otherwise it could turn all the pups into REW (If I got this right) since the Burmese has two Cchm
You are on the right lines - but they are PEWs (pink-eyed whites - which are bleached out c*c* colorpoints who actually carry two recessive pink-eye genes (see codes given in previous message)) not REWs ruby-eyed whites, which are partially bleached out chch colorpoints who actually carry at least 1 single dominant dark-eye gene (P*).
Burmese lines where individuals have (pp) or carry (Pp) pink-eye genes will always produce PEWs - and at a higher rate than the usual punnett square because these two recessive alleles are so close together on the same gene that they are often carried over together during cell division. Because of this action they are often called 'linked'.
Burmese lines are often where you would test breed a male or female before adding them to your breeding pool to make sure they DIDN'T carry a hidden p gene specifically for this reason.
The reverse is also true, so breeding a PEW (or REW) into your lines means that you will be introducing at least 1 cp gene in the first cross - the only downside is that you don't know what actual colour they are underneath all that white (unless you source them from an excellent color breeder who will know roughly or even exactly what they are under all that white). You just have to wait and see what pops up in their litters and start to fill in their code as you go.
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Post by TJ's Rodent Ranch on Jan 25, 2024 22:56:34 GMT -8
Hi again! Sorry, I've been off the forum for a minute. My cat was hit by a car two days ago, and passed away, so I've been dealing with that, and then today was my birthday so it's been kind of crazy. So I think it's all coming together! So I think my main question is about the D locus, which I'm partially reading about on the forum and partially touching up on Shooting Star's page. (Every time I read it I understand more each time). So, my main question is about Sesame and Zit.
Sesame: Burmese: aa cchm cchm D* Ee Uwuwd P* Zit: Honeycream: aa C* D* ee Uw PP
(I think the Uw is correct?) so my main question here, is because Sesame does have a little e, then would they have nutmegs or honeycreams? I'm really looking forward to filling in their nomenclatures when they have pups. So another question... If, for example, you had a Black and an Agouti, then the big A of the Agouti rules out all other genes that might come through, right? However, in that case, you do still get some colors on the Non-agouti side. How when there's a big A, does anything come through? I guess, while that's the shallow meaning of my question, part of the meaning of my question, is exactly how much luck, vs science is there in the pups? So, I guess another way to put it, is it completely scientific, where if you had all the genes, and knew their parents, grandparents, and great-grandparents, then could you know exactly what color babies they would have, and exactly what percent of the pups will be what colors, or is there some luck to it, where you can know what colors they might have, but not exactly what percent, and even if you know their whole lineage, you might still get surprise colors?
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Post by betty on Jan 26, 2024 0:37:05 GMT -8
Oh bless you - that is such a sad thing to happen - I have certainly been there, twice sadly. I'm so sorry.
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Post by betty on Jan 26, 2024 6:04:45 GMT -8
So I think my main question is about the D locus, which I'm partially reading about on the forum and partially touching up on Shooting Star's page. (Every time I read it I understand more each time).
Yes, the effects of the D gene are something I haven't got any experience in. I haven't used the gene myself or taken on any gerbils with it so apart from how it is inherited - I think Shooting Stars website (or contacting a breeder actively working with D) is your best bet. Not sure anyone else on here is - but on the FB genetics group I mentioned, there are several...
So, my main question is about Sesame and Zit.
Sesame: Burmese: aa cchm cchm D* Ee P* Uwuwd Zit: Honeycream: aa C* D* ee PP Uw*
(I think the Uw is correct?) so my main question here, is because Sesame does have a little e, then would they have nutmegs or honeycreams?
Your Uw gene (as in the dominant 'no different colors' gene) is present in both parents because neither a Burmese nor a Nutmeg (Honey Cream) have greying - a Burmese with greying would be a CP Slate and a Nutmeg with greying would be a Silver Nutmeg. You are showing Sesame's second-written gene as the recessive version - because she inherited it from her dad, but we are only showing a * for Zit's second-written space as we don't know if he has one yet.
You are correct also about the e gene. Because a different recessive color/gene only shows on a pup when there are two of them to inherit (one from each parent) - if you HAVE one recessive gene for sure with each potential parent - then they can meet up and form that color in their pups. 2 hidden recessives however, only have a 1 in 4 average of showing up in of themselves, so you may not see an ee pup in any one litter - or you may have 2 or 3 in each litter.
In this pairing (Sesame and Zit) you have all 4 of the recessive genes for the letter a - this means that ALL the pups will be aa too (as there is no A for the crane to find). This is of course - assuming that Zit is a Nutmeg Honey Cream. As you CANNOT pass on an A gene from an aa x aa pairing - if you get any pups with colors on the agouti side - then one of the parents has been misidentified (most likely Zit).
I'm really looking forward to filling in their nomenclatures when they have pups. It is always fun to get the first litter of pups to see if anything sticks out an new - but due to the odds game of all the genes, sometimes you don't get everything first go - or even second go. Therefore, if a gene doesn't show up - even in 10 pups - it still hasn't been proven to 100% not be there - so you still have to leave the * in place.
I had a pairing that only EVER made CP Agoutis - ever. Nothing else entirely. The parents carried every other single recessive - but their double dominants clashed - so each other gene in each other blocked out the effects of the other! Mum was AA cc EE pp UwUw and dad was aa cc Ee PP uwduwd Thank goodness for spotting!
Crazy...
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Post by betty on Jan 26, 2024 7:00:46 GMT -8
So another question...
If, for example, you had a Black and an Agouti, then the big A of the Agouti rules out all other genes that might come through, right? It doesn't rule them out for ever - and it doesn't rule them out alone. Take a look at a punnet square with different genes on one side - and run through the other options on the other. For example (as above with my double-dominant pairing): if we are talking gerbils (as mice and other rodents have more than one version of agouti) and one of the parents has double-dominant A (AA) - then yes - all their pups - regardless of who they were paired with - would be agouti-side colors. 100%.
If one of the parents had Aa - only one dominant A - then they would only be able to pass that on to half their pups; the other (theoretical) half would get their little a. (this goes for every gene where there are only 2 known forms of the gene in question), however, this doesn't mean that 50% of their pups will be agouti-colored and 50% will be non-agouti coloured. Confusing eh?? It all depends on what the genes are on the other gerbil.
If they had AA - then it would be game over.
However, in that case, you do still get some colors on the Non-agouti side. This is where it depends on the other gerbil. If we go back to the hypothethical Aa Agouti here - and your other gerbil is actually colored with that gene (in this case aa (= Black)), then yes - you will still get non-agouti colors in your litter because - like we mentioned before - you only need two of the little recessive genes (one from each parent) to combine together to make that color happen. So in this hypothetical Aa x aa pairing - both parents have a little a and so can produce aa (non-agouti-colored) pups.
However, if your Agouti was actually AA - then there won't be two little recessive a gene to match up - and so no aa pups at all.
How when there's a big A, does anything come through? As above, the dominant genes are only half the story - if they are there - they win (or at least dominate the color shown in their own way). So the recessives stay concealed or at least part-concealed.
The recessive genes come through eventually because they are always there. They are persistant because once they are born - these gerbils can't change their genes - we just can't see them. All they need is to match up with someone else with the same recessive gene - and voila. Pair up Terry + June you might get one set of pup colors - but pair up Terry + Sarah and you might get a whole other set of colors. Pair up June to Derek - and you might get 100% CP Agoutis!!!!!
Genes in gerbils - thankfully - are very simple and straight forward really. Other animals have co-dominant genes and masked genes all over the place, coat effects and underlying cryptic things. Stick to gerbils first for sure - but as you learn more - there will always be exceptions to all the rules I am sharing now.
These are the super-simplified gerbil-only statements - they do not hold true to genetics worldwide!
I guess, while that's the shallow meaning of my question, part of the meaning of my question, is exactly how much luck, vs science is there in the pups? The science never changes - the genes in gerbils always act the same way - and are guaranteed to work the same way - ie - you cannot get an agouti-based gerbil from a pair of non-agouti-based gerbils; and you cannot get an ee gerbil from a pairing if one of the gerbils is EE, etc...
Luck is massive. Each gerbil born has a random chance of having any combination of genes inherited from their parents. So they can inherit any individual allele from either parent equally - but of course they aren't inheriting each possible color equally.
They still will inherit the 2 alleles they need to be a functioning gerbil - but some of these genes will affect their color and others won't. For example, there are absolutely LOADS of different written ways that an individual gerbil can be an agouti:
AA CC DD EE PP UuUw; Aa CC DD EE PP UwUw; AA CC Dd EE PP UwUw; Aa CC Dd EE PP UwUw; AA CC Dd Ee PP UwUw; Aa CC Dd EE Pp UwUw; etc.
So if you were hoping for one of them to match up 2 single recessives on just your e slot, the sheer number of chances of it being an Agouti outweigh it (especially if you are using an actual Agouti in the first place). Imagine buying that lottery ticket again: all the losing tickets are the possible Agouti pups - and the winning ticket is the recessive color you want! Chances individually are 1 in 4 still of just that single gene pairing up - but add them into a pot with all the other genes - and your stats get drastically reduced...
So, I guess another way to put it, is it completely scientific, where if you had all the genes, and knew their parents, grandparents, and great-grandparents, then could you know exactly what color babies they would have, and exactly what percent of the pups will be what colors, or is there some luck to it, where you can know what colors they might have, but not exactly what percent, and even if you know their whole lineage, you might still get surprise colors? If you know your whole lineage - you will never get surprise colours (unless you happen to have a new mutation crop up).
The dominants are easy because we know they act 50/50 in gerbils - but you need to factor in all their full gene combinations: it is all simple maths really (and there are a few reliable gerbil genetics calculators online what pump out the stats for you), but what ACTUALLY pops out can change every litter of course. It has to change because there aren't enough pups born to give you every single combination possible, so each litter is another lottery.
However, you can help shrink the allele/gene pool and increase your chances of certain colors if you wanted to (or had to).
If you match up any two identical recessives in two animals (say you breed together two nutmegs) you will never get colors outside of those colors. All their pups HAVE TO BE ee as well. They can be any version of ee of course, but there will be no colors that aren't ee. This indirectly INCREASES your chances of getting a Honey Cream because it reduces the chances of you producing an Agouti.
If you match up another set of recessive in the same animals - say pink-eyes - then this goes into your calculation and further limits the colors of pups you could get - so if you pair up ee and pp in both parents - all you pups will HAVE TO BE ee pp as well. A very useful tool for color breeding.
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