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Post by Shooting Star on Jan 23, 2008 11:35:26 GMT -8
Copied over from another thread: gerbilforum.proboards.com/thread/1100/okay-new-stuff-gerbils-workChinchilla sand contains silicates. Even though it's not a lot, if you're around chinchillas/sand bathe a lot of gerbils, it can be bad for your health. www.workershealth.com.au/facts060.htmlI've used Gravel'n'Grit before-- they're not too keen on bathing with it, but it's not dangerous. It's quartz sand-- look at my other post. Quartz sand = 100% silica! Yes, that's one of the reasons to use sand rather than dust. The less airborne particles, the better. But unless you buy specifically silica-free playsand, it's almost certain to have silica in it. "Crystalline silica is a basic component of soil, sand, granite, and many other minerals." -- www.osha.gov/OshDoc/data_General_Facts/crystalline-factsheet.pdfIt's not dangerous because it's very coarse sand-- there is virtually no silica dust to inhale.
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Post by ohmylokix on Jan 23, 2008 12:19:02 GMT -8
Silica play sand has been banned in the state of California. safesand.stores.yahoo.net/imsasaandpls.htmlBecause it is dry, dust will always be an issue. Just because it's coarse doesn't mean there aren't tiny, breathable particles. In fact, chinchilla sand is VERY dusty! Aragonite sand is much safer, comes in bulk, and is better at absorbing oils in the coat.
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Post by Shooting Star on Jan 23, 2008 12:42:03 GMT -8
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Post by ohmylokix on Jan 23, 2008 13:07:04 GMT -8
The risk is more for humans who have owned chinchillas/gerbils for a very long time.
I'm sure that lung damage can be sustained by gerbils, especially if they use their bath sand every day.
Why use a silicate sand when you can get 30lbs bags of aragonite sand for $15?
Besides, a gerbil's metabolism is a lot faster than ours. It's in the best interest of the gerbils to use safe products, and not adopt such a negative attitude such as Shooting Star's.
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Post by RitzieAnn on Jan 23, 2008 22:41:17 GMT -8
Loki, I do wonder, in your picture, that doesn't look like dust- that looks like kicked up sand from your gerbil who is rolling in it (quite obviously rolling) I have a picture like that... but it's kicked up, not dusty. i5.photobucket.com/albums/y174/Gerbilarium/Copyright/April4rd2007005.jpgThere are lots of things that will continue to be "bad" for gerbils. I mean, they're now starting to say that aspen isn't so good either. I think until more facts are found, it's hard to say. As far as the bit about "California" finding something bad- I'd take that with a grain of salt too. I'm finding that California is a bunch of boogers who are freaked out about everything. I was in the drive through at a burger place (Carls Jr) and there was a notice saying something like "chemicals in use that have been found to possibly cause birth defects and or other reproductive harm." Something like that anyway. Then tonight, we went to Olive Garden, and I found another notice like that stating that there are ingredients in use that may or may not cause birth defects and or other reproductive harm. I wouldn't call Shootingstars' statement negative though, as it does seem to take WAY longer than a gerbils lifespan to develop. But like I said, this'll go back and forth, just like the article saying that aspen was harmful too....
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Post by Shooting Star on Jan 24, 2008 0:39:13 GMT -8
I don't really see how my attitude was negative. I'm keeping an open mind. I'm just trying to represent the other side of the "argument".
I'd love to hear about any cases where normal use of silicate sand negatively impacted the health of a gerbil or other rodent.
Everything is bad for you. If people don't think so now, they either did in the past, or will in the future.
What do you know about Aragonite sand? How do you know it's safe? Has it passed some official health testing-- or has it just not been tested? We know about the dangers of crystalline silica because of the illnesses that appeared in miners, etc. Who is exposed to that level of Aragonite?
You can never prove that something is safe, you can only prove that it's unsafe.
(Apologies for any spelling/grammar errors and/or lack of coherency. It's nearly 4am.)
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Post by RitzieAnn on Jan 24, 2008 11:54:54 GMT -8
Loki, I was just reading the link you posted about how California "banned" it. Um... Where did it say the sand was banned? All I read was that it's required to have that lable on it. Also, here's a look at another article I found. Personally, I like the first line... "Although silica (silicon dioxide) exists abundantly in nature, it is normally found within sand and rock where it cannot be inhaled." It also says that "silica is also the main ingredient in glass". www.expertlaw.com/library/environmental_law/silicosis.html
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Post by gerbilmummy on Jan 24, 2008 13:05:03 GMT -8
Hi, Just to chip in here (pardon the pun ) I think Loki is like shootingstar says she is doing for her part presenting a side to a debate. Silica in solid rock and glass can't be inhaled, or if it was you would have more to worry about if you inhaled a pane of glass or boulder As shootingstar has said herself there is alot of evidence that inhalation of silica causes harm At the end of the day people will make their own decisions about this but I think its healthy to have debate, and think there is no need for any one to feel threatened by anothers opinion.
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Post by Ed on Jan 24, 2008 14:50:20 GMT -8
I might be able to help you guys out here on your debate As i'm currently researching all sand types and their pro's and cons for an article I'm doing for egerbil. I think here if you get past the first line and move to the second line, you can see how sand poses the risk of silicosis in the building industry. In essence it's the dust created from it that causes the problems. A quick way of finding out health risks of products is to use various searches on MSDS (material safety data sheets) that most companies have to adhere to when marketing products. For example if you look at aragonite sand, lets take a company like Meridian that sells this for marine aquariums... www.seachem.com/products/product_pages/Meridian.htmlYou will see if you scroll to the bottom of their page on the product that they actually link to the MSDS safety sheet. Now if you check this you will find it exempt under CFR 1910.1200 (b) (6) (v). This basically translates to... "means a manufactured item other than a fluid or particle: (i) which is formed to a specific shape or design during manufacture; (ii) which has end use function(s) dependent in whole or in part upon its shape or design during end use; and (iii) which under normal conditions of use does not release more than very small quantities, e.g., minute or trace amounts of a hazardous chemical (as determined under paragraph (d) of this section), and does not pose a physical hazard or health risk to employees. " Which presumably means that bagging and working with the product doesn't pose a health risk. Also if you look at companies that actually market safe sands, they'll usually have the data available on the product. You can actually see this on one of the links that loki posted, www.safesand.com/msds.htmNow if you check companies out that make and use quartz type sands you can see the MSMS sheets on them too, for example, www.titanamerica.com/products/msds/pdf/sand.pdfWhere if you scroll down it has to list the hazards and of course the fact that crystalline silica is carcinogenic. Here's another one from another company.. www.msha.gov/regs/complian/guides/hazcom/msds/NaturalSandGravelMSDS.pdfThe thing is virtually all the commercial bathing sands have silica in their products, including fullers earth, sepiolite, volcanic pumice, and products like blue sparkle are made from a cement by-product, it also has the sparkle due to its high silica content Products like sepiolite (attapulgite sand) have been a concern to the hamster community for years, because its structure is fibrous and very similar to asbestos, so in theory it may have the same risks when inhaled and remain in the lung. Products like pumice when mined has serious health risk factors because the dust is lethal if inhaled and usually twice yearly health checks and protective gear has to be worn when mining it. With Aragonite sand that is often used as a safe sand it has far fewer problems, and even if you take pure calcium carbonate dust itself, it is regarded more of a nuisance dust and doesn't have any toxic properties. Of course at the dust level, excessive concentrations of any nuisance dust can cause coughing, sneezing and nasal irritation. Personally I would prefer the occasional cough or sneeze than finding out that I had contracted silicosis or some other irreversible lung disorder. Incidentally a lot of the toxic data on these substances are gleaned from rodent experiments, so I would imagine that excessive exposure could cause long term problems for a rodent. Hope this helps, Ed
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Post by gerbilmummy on Jan 24, 2008 15:04:42 GMT -8
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Post by Shooting Star on Jan 24, 2008 15:17:14 GMT -8
A quick way of finding out health risks of products is to use various searches on MSDS (material safety data sheets) that most companies have to adhere to when marketing products. Thank you! That's exactly what I was looking for. Of course. Excessive exposure/use of anything will cause problems, though. (Remember the study showing that a diet of only sunflower seeds caused obesity?) I was wondering if there were any instances of health problems in rodents caused by normal use of silicate bathing sand. I agree completely with the theory and potential risks, and it's always better to be safe than sorry. I just wanted to know if it was all theory, or if there had actually been problems reported with using silicate sand for occasional sand-baths.
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Post by Ed on Jan 24, 2008 15:44:00 GMT -8
[Of course. Excessive exposure/use of anything will cause problems, though. (Remember the study showing that a diet of only sunflower seeds caused obesity?) I was wondering if there were any instances of health problems in rodents caused by normal use of silicate bathing sand. I agree completely with the theory and potential risks, and it's always better to be safe than sorry. I just wanted to know if it was all theory, or if there had actually been problems reported with using silicate sand for occasional sand-baths. Yes I know all too well about the sunflower seed study, and it's led to some serious misunderstanding about sunflower seeds over the years. There are a few European hamster websites that which promote an awareness to the potential dangers of sepiolite, but like I mentioned a lot of the silicate studies, apart from all the human examples have used rodents in assessing it's toxicity. I think it comes down to common sense and if you can see a visible dust cloud when using, try and find a product with larger granules. My personal concern with a lot of chinchilla sands and dusts is that for the owners, especially if you've kept animals such as chinchillas where the dust bathing can get excessively dusty and it's not much fun knowing you're inhaling something lethal like blue sparkle! Also I keep a lot of gerbil species and jerboas which often have to be housed on pure sands, and products like Aragonite sand seems the safest of all options, so have used it for years. I've also found that Aragonite sand is a lot less dusty than products like "charlie chinchilla" sand etc,as the granules are usually slightly larger and also rounded. It's also much cheaper. It has to be a smooth sand too to prevent abrasion and damage to the coat, and also to remove grease which it does a good job of. Ed
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Post by giggerbil on May 2, 2009 14:30:08 GMT -8
I feel maybe my two cents might help here so here it goes. As some one who has HORRIBLE lung use and sneezes if so much as a speck of dust enters the room, knowing what dust merely makes you sneeze and what will cause you harm so...best way to see if it's dust is to stick your nose in it...ok no maybe not, but I did and when i smelled the chin dust i sneezed and sneezed and has bits of grey sand in my nose so yeah my naive vote is for the other sand no sneeze at all! Haha you probably think I'm nuts, but anything for my gerbs hope it helps..thanks for reading!
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Post by erik7778910 on Oct 29, 2011 7:22:50 GMT -8
Yeah....I'm glad I don't live in california...... But it's really nice there
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Post by mrsmhayes on Feb 24, 2012 13:13:23 GMT -8
Just wondering, I have a dry mud mask called Aztec Secret which is pure calcium bentonite clay, anyone use that or something similar?
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